this is a conversation me and a friend had on the subject
i decided to copy and past it here cause i think it expands on some of my points, and i'm too lazy to try to convert it into essay form.
Quote:
[5/11/2015 11:11:56 PM] John Doe: not antisocial.. thinking too much into it me thinks
[5/11/2015 11:12:05 PM] Brandon: nah i think im right
[5/11/2015 11:12:18 PM] Brandon: people always say im thinking too much about stuff when they dont have a response
[5/11/2015 11:13:10 PM] John Doe: everyone is in too different stuff the only time it would be anti-social is if it was a group that went abhorrent from society not just unpopular
[5/11/2015 11:13:39 PM] John Doe: like just because 4chan isn't widely popular a lot of things on there don't go against societal norms.. its just niche
[5/11/2015 11:14:08 PM] Brandon: 'abhorrent from societ not just unpopular'
[5/11/2015 11:14:11 PM] Brandon: expand on that
[5/11/2015 11:14:21 PM] Brandon: cause i don't know which distinction you're making here
[5/11/2015 11:14:47 PM] John Doe: okay so you have this whole sub-culture of gamer nerds with their inside jokes and everything
[5/11/2015 11:15:00 PM] John Doe: they are are a minority (unpopular)
[5/11/2015 11:15:11 PM] John Doe: but nothing about them goes against american culture
[5/11/2015 11:15:41 PM] Brandon: it undermines mainstream american culture in a number of ways
[5/11/2015 11:15:59 PM] Brandon: by placing value on traits that aren't valued by mainstream american culture
[5/11/2015 11:16:35 PM] John Doe: where do you even begin to draw the line though
[5/11/2015 11:16:41 PM] Brandon: its taking something that in one cultural context is undesirable, and making it something to strive for
[5/11/2015 11:18:12 PM] John Doe: ur making it seem as though there are very strict mainstream cultures when really i can't think of many with clear lines
[5/11/2015 11:18:22 PM] Brandon: no im not
[5/11/2015 11:18:27 PM] Brandon: of course its ambiguous
[5/11/2015 11:18:35 PM] Brandon: but we wouldnt have terms like mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:18:37 PM] Brandon: and alternative
[5/11/2015 11:18:42 PM] Brandon: if they didnt have any meaning at all
[5/11/2015 11:18:47 PM] John Doe: yeh but what makes a culture alternative
[5/11/2015 11:19:01 PM] John Doe: are people who join knitting clubs going against the mainstream?
[5/11/2015 11:19:18 PM] Brandon: i'm not saying it's a simple black & white distinction between alternative and mainstream cultures though
[5/11/2015 11:19:20 PM] John Doe: i could see ur point for things like fashion, music, movies
[5/11/2015 11:19:24 PM] Brandon: that's not my argument
[5/11/2015 11:19:39 PM] Brandon: my argument is to the extent that 'mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:19:47 PM] Brandon: ' and 'alternative' trends exist
[5/11/2015 11:19:56 PM] Brandon: to the extent that these terms have meaning
[5/11/2015 11:20:08 PM] Brandon: alternative trends are inherently antisocial
[5/11/2015 11:20:42 PM] John Doe: yeh i understand that but how many things actually have mainstream/alternative versions
[5/11/2015 11:20:56 PM] John Doe: if ur saying that gamer nerds are an alternative culture
[5/11/2015 11:21:05 PM] John Doe: than what is the mainstream culture they are going against
[5/11/2015 11:21:15 PM] Brandon: most thingas that have to do with culture and identity politics
[5/11/2015 11:21:18 PM] John Doe: which makes them anti-social
[5/11/2015 11:21:21 PM] Brandon: i would say
[5/11/2015 11:22:18 PM] Brandon: they're basically going against the mainstream culture that exists in most american high schools and colleges
[5/11/2015 11:22:30 PM] Brandon: in an american context
[5/11/2015 11:22:39 PM] Brandon: it might be different in other countries or cultures
[5/11/2015 11:23:25 PM] John Doe: i dont necessarily disagree with what your ultimately getting at because I can easily identify with what you saying when i think about music/fashion etc
[5/11/2015 11:23:52 PM] Brandon: i would extend it to morality and cultural values as well though
[5/11/2015 11:23:58 PM] John Doe: but beyond that it gets soo blurred idk that I can agree.. for every counter culture you would have to identify the mainstream culture it challenges
[5/11/2015 11:24:08 PM] Brandon: e.g. feminism, religion, etc
[5/11/2015 11:24:45 PM] Brandon: like you brought up gaming nerds
[5/11/2015 11:25:04 PM] Brandon: be honest... do you not think gaming nerds have cultural memes
[5/11/2015 11:25:14 PM] Brandon: which seem to prosper within that community?
[5/11/2015 11:25:18 PM] John Doe: of course they do
[5/11/2015 11:25:18 PM] Brandon: like styles of dress
[5/11/2015 11:25:24 PM] Brandon: types of music
[5/11/2015 11:25:26 PM] Brandon: etc
[5/11/2015 11:25:36 PM] Brandon: so if it applies to fashion and music
[5/11/2015 11:25:44 PM] Brandon: it applies to gaming nerds
[5/11/2015 11:25:49 PM] Brandon: i dont see the distinction
[5/11/2015 11:27:03 PM] John Doe: because.. I can link your to streamers who completely adopt those gamer nerd memes but also perfectly fit into the mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:27:25 PM] John Doe: it's not like if you enjoy that one thing you can't also appreciate the other things
[5/11/2015 11:27:32 PM] Brandon: yea thats not what i meant
[5/11/2015 11:27:43 PM] Brandon: i didnt mean that having a hobby makes you antisocial
[5/11/2015 11:27:53 PM] John Doe: i know
[5/11/2015 11:27:54 PM] Brandon: but when it turns into a counter cultural movement
[5/11/2015 11:28:04 PM] Brandon: like for instance feminism
[5/11/2015 11:28:16 PM] Brandon: then i see that as an antisocial movement
[5/11/2015 11:28:32 PM] Brandon: not that the people within it are personally not socializing
[5/11/2015 11:28:46 PM] Brandon: but the movement in relation to the society it exists in
[5/11/2015 11:28:48 PM] Brandon: is antisocial
[5/11/2015 11:29:44 PM] John Doe: agreed
[5/11/2015 11:32:23 PM] John Doe: but going back to the gamer nerds it doesnt fit the definition.. it's not devoid of or antagonistic, they don't seek to undermine or invert mainstream values either.
[5/11/2015 11:32:38 PM] John Doe: those are deliberate acts.. feminism is deliberate
[5/11/2015 11:33:24 PM] John Doe: enjoying video games and the culture surrounding it is not done to specifically go against or upset the mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:33:49 PM] John Doe: i think that's how you could make the distinction
[5/11/2015 11:36:12 PM] Brandon: well i dunno about that
[5/11/2015 11:36:19 PM] Brandon: its not always to make conflict
[5/11/2015 11:36:27 PM] Brandon: thats not what i mean by antisocial
[5/11/2015 11:36:29 PM] John Doe: not to make a conflict..
[5/11/2015 11:36:33 PM] Brandon: but to shift cultural trends
[5/11/2015 11:36:45 PM] Brandon: like gamer nerds might enjoy anime shirts or whatever
[5/11/2015 11:37:02 PM] Brandon: those weird looking hawaian type shirts with anime **** on it
[5/11/2015 11:37:13 PM] Brandon: thats definitely a trend that undermines mainstream values
[5/11/2015 11:37:24 PM] Brandon: might not be deliberate, but it does
[5/11/2015 11:38:30 PM] John Doe: ok.. so how about something like Alexander McQueen's avant-garde fashion which is highly regarded by mainstream fashion but completely alternative to what's popular?
[5/11/2015 11:38:52 PM] John Doe: http://payload.cargocollective.com/1...870/178777.jpg
[5/11/2015 11:38:53 PM] Brandon: im not familiar with it
[5/11/2015 11:39:18 PM] John Doe: would u consider that anti-social even though it's embraced by the mainstream?
[5/11/2015 11:39:23 PM] Brandon: how do u mean its highly regarded by mainstream fashion
[5/11/2015 11:40:03 PM] John Doe: he's dead now but that dude was highly sought after by celebs and well recognized by the mainstream fashion industry
[5/11/2015 11:40:13 PM] Brandon: lol
[5/11/2015 11:40:21 PM] Brandon: i think its important to keep in mind
[5/11/2015 11:40:24 PM] John Doe: but he does all avant-garde type of things.. so is that anti-scoail
[5/11/2015 11:40:29 PM] John Doe: social*?
[5/11/2015 11:40:31 PM] Brandon: that the 'mainstream fashion industry'
[5/11/2015 11:40:37 PM] Brandon: isnt all that mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:40:53 PM] Brandon: its more elitist and promoted by celebs
[5/11/2015 11:41:04 PM] Brandon: so yea its anti social
[5/11/2015 11:41:36 PM] John Doe: ahh but that's only because it's so expensive it's unattainable NOT because tons of people wouldn't love to have it given the money
[5/11/2015 11:41:45 PM] Brandon: nah
[5/11/2015 11:41:47 PM] Brandon: disagreed
[5/11/2015 11:41:52 PM] Brandon: the average woman wouldnt wear that
[5/11/2015 11:41:55 PM] Brandon: they just wouldnt
[5/11/2015 11:42:03 PM] John Doe: not that thing in particular
[5/11/2015 11:42:27 PM] John Doe: but im just saying all those brands like dulche, prada, etc all fit into the same category
[5/11/2015 11:42:37 PM] John Doe: and i know tons of chicks who definitely would wear there stuff
[5/11/2015 11:42:40 PM] John Doe: their*
[5/11/2015 11:42:46 PM] Brandon: lol yea well ask yourself this, why are they so expensive in the first place
[5/11/2015 11:43:10 PM] John Doe: mainstream hype
[5/11/2015 11:43:15 PM] Brandon: more like
[5/11/2015 11:43:19 PM] Brandon: exclusionism
[5/11/2015 11:43:23 PM] John Doe: there are tons of really expensive brands that aren't hyped by the mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:43:33 PM] Brandon: the hype of the product is affected
[5/11/2015 11:43:44 PM] Brandon: by how its unattainable to so many people
[5/11/2015 11:43:51 PM] Brandon: thats an exclusionary tactic
[5/11/2015 11:43:56 PM] Brandon: that is definitely anti social
[5/11/2015 11:45:48 PM] John Doe: but it's mainstream...
[5/11/2015 11:45:59 PM] Brandon: not really
[5/11/2015 11:46:08 PM] Brandon: its about as mainstream as noam chomsky
[5/11/2015 11:46:44 PM] Brandon: you want mainstream? hollister
[5/11/2015 11:46:46 PM] Brandon: thats mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:46:50 PM] Brandon: footlocker
[5/11/2015 11:46:51 PM] Brandon: lol
[5/11/2015 11:46:54 PM] Brandon: thats mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:47:17 PM] Brandon: sort of like michael moore is mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:47:19 PM] Brandon: noam chomsky isnt
[5/11/2015 11:47:34 PM] Brandon: hes highly regarded by the academic elite
[5/11/2015 11:47:41 PM] Brandon: thats not the same as being mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:47:41 PM] John Doe: so basically anything associated with middle class america and everything else is anti-social
[5/11/2015 11:47:56 PM] Brandon: anything associated with the bulk of the population
[5/11/2015 11:47:59 PM] Brandon: in any society
[5/11/2015 11:48:09 PM] Brandon: thats the most straight forward definition i can think of
[5/11/2015 11:48:11 PM] Brandon: of mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:48:42 PM] John Doe: ok then feminism is not anti-social
[5/11/2015 11:48:53 PM] Brandon: that depends on where you live
[5/11/2015 11:49:07 PM] Brandon: if you live in vermont then probably not
[5/11/2015 11:49:07 PM] John Doe: no you can't do that
[5/11/2015 11:49:18 PM] Brandon: lol
[5/11/2015 11:49:21 PM] John Doe: because sub-cultures are anti-social in an of themselves
[5/11/2015 11:49:23 PM] Brandon: says who?
[5/11/2015 11:49:28 PM] John Doe: u have to think of america as a whole
[5/11/2015 11:49:39 PM] Brandon: ok, i dont have stats on this
[5/11/2015 11:49:49 PM] Brandon: but just guessing
[5/11/2015 11:49:54 PM] Brandon: i would say modern feminism
[5/11/2015 11:49:56 PM] Brandon: is not mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:50:05 PM] Brandon: if you broke down the number
[5/11/2015 11:50:05 PM] Brandon: s
[5/11/2015 11:50:15 PM] John Doe: really? maybe it's just cause I'm from NJ
[5/11/2015 11:50:21 PM] John Doe: so my sub-culture is getting in the way
[5/11/2015 11:50:26 PM] Brandon: i mean a good 40-50% of the american population
[5/11/2015 11:50:27 PM] John Doe: but it's widely accepted around here
[5/11/2015 11:50:39 PM] Brandon: is creationist/christian fundamentalists
[5/11/2015 11:50:54 PM] Brandon: thats why i said it depends on where you live
[5/11/2015 11:50:56 PM] Brandon: cause it does
[5/11/2015 11:51:05 PM] Brandon: your environment affects what you consider mainstream
[5/11/2015 11:51:20 PM] Brandon: theres no logical reason to regard america holistically
[5/11/2015 11:51:26 PM] Brandon: with regaurd to culture
[5/11/2015 11:52:00 PM] John Doe: okay well if your enviroment affects what is mainstream to you then we circle back to the gaming community
[5/11/2015 11:52:09 PM] John Doe: that's their environment...
[5/11/2015 11:52:17 PM] John Doe: and they are within the culture norms of that community
[5/11/2015 11:52:18 PM] Brandon: if by environment you mean chatroom...
[5/11/2015 11:52:35 PM] Brandon: is their any actual physical community where gaming nerds are the norm?
[5/11/2015 11:52:42 PM] Brandon: like a whole city or state?
[5/11/2015 11:52:43 PM] John Doe: no.. i mean the millions of people playing on servers
[5/11/2015 11:52:49 PM] John Doe: across the country together
[5/11/2015 11:53:01 PM] Brandon: each of which exist in independent communities
[5/11/2015 11:53:06 PM] Brandon: where they interact with non gamers
[5/11/2015 11:53:07 PM] John Doe: that's what i mean this is so ambiguous it's just ridiculous to talk about
[5/11/2015 11:53:11 PM] Brandon: on a day to day basis
[5/11/2015 11:53:23 PM] Brandon: nah i disagree
[5/11/2015 11:53:31 PM] Brandon: i think its interesting to talk about
[5/11/2015 11:53:45 PM] John Doe: it is interesting
[5/11/2015 11:53:50 PM] Brandon: you're looking for an angle to bring it down cause maybe you don't like the labels
[5/11/2015 11:53:51 PM] John Doe: i just don't see us coming to an agreement
[5/11/2015 11:54:01 PM] Brandon: but so far you havent found one
[5/11/2015 11:54:07 PM] John Doe: i don't mind the labels, and im using ur definition of anti-social
[5/11/2015 11:54:31 PM] John Doe: but im still confused about this where you come from thing
[5/11/2015 11:54:53 PM] John Doe: i feel like when you through that into your side of the argument it's countering the original intent of your post
[5/11/2015 11:54:59 PM] Brandon: well lets say for example the gamer nerds actually lived in and existed soley on those servers
[5/11/2015 11:55:13 PM] Brandon: they spend their entire lives on those servers and within their gamer communities
[5/11/2015 11:55:14 PM] John Doe: I feel like you need to base it on society as a whole
[5/11/2015 11:55:19 PM] Brandon: then you might have a point
[5/11/2015 11:55:25 PM] Brandon: but physically thats just impossible
[5/11/2015 11:55:30 PM] Brandon: they must exist in other communities
[5/11/2015 11:55:36 PM] Brandon: go to normal high schools
[5/11/2015 11:55:39 PM] Brandon: probably get picked on
[5/11/2015 11:55:44 PM] Brandon: by the adherants
[5/11/2015 11:55:50 PM] Brandon: of mainstream culture in those high schools
[5/11/2015 11:56:05 PM] Brandon: so i cant say the server is 'their environment'
[5/11/2015 11:56:07 PM] John Doe: idk it's hard for me.. im a gamer nerd but I've always fit in well.
[5/11/2015 11:56:14 PM] Brandon: cause they exist in a different environment
[5/11/2015 11:56:28 PM] Brandon: well tbh gaming culture and nerd culture
[5/11/2015 11:56:34 PM] Brandon: is gaining some mainstream acceptance
[5/11/2015 11:56:40 PM] Brandon: slowly but surely
[5/11/2015 11:56:44 PM] John Doe: no man im talking like 10-15 years ago
[5/11/2015 11:56:48 PM] John Doe: before it was a thing
[5/11/2015 11:57:00 PM] John Doe: but ur right
[5/11/2015 11:57:05 PM] Brandon: maybe you live in an incredibly tolerant society
[5/11/2015 11:57:15 PM] Brandon: or maybe u just didnt adopt
[5/11/2015 11:57:19 PM] Brandon: some of the cultural memes
[5/11/2015 11:57:29 PM] Brandon: that a lot of gamer nerds adopt
[5/11/2015 11:57:32 PM] Brandon: i dunno
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