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Originally Posted by Anteater
1. I agree the west should have just left the Middle East alone as opposed to meddling circa WW2 and beyond. We are part of the problem too, but the fundamentalist ideology existed in Saudi Arabia and beyond for centuries before now. We woke a sleeping dragon, so to speak.
2. You must have missed it when I said "Yeah you have some minority nutjob denominations, but they generally keep to themselves and have no control over society, culture, etc." It isn't impossible for Christianity to become violently galvanized at the scale we're discussing in the Middle East, but now we're in "what if" territory which is a waste of time.
3. Everything we're talking about predates Donald Trump. Clinton and Bush fit the bill just as well (among others we've had in the past).
4. They don't like Western meddling for sure, but they're committing acts of terrorism in countries that have nothing to do with "Western" culture as well. Pulling out completely would be an interesting option, but you are naive if you believe that's the only motivation they have. Violence is a fundamental face to their belief system just as certain aspects of the Old Testament prevail in various Christian ideologies (and don't get me started on Calvinism lol). Difference is, fundamentalist Christians aren't strapping bomb vests on children and sending them out into the streets. If you really believe the violence isn't cultural or ingrained to some degree then you are deluding yourself. It is completely inexcusable.
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1. My point was this fundamentalist ideology exists in EVERY RELIGION. This gets to my belief that religion in general needs to fade away, but that's another discussion. There's a sleeping dragon waiting behind every person with a belief system that does not require proof but does require absolute devotion.
2. It's not a matter of "what if?", it's a matter of "what would it take?". Religious texts are vague, translated a million times over, and couched in metaphor. Anything like that can be interpreted to fit your world view. Replace Muslims with Christians and I guarantee you we would be saying Christianity is a religion of violence. ANY belief system coupled with poverty and poor education can be taken advantage of.
3. I never said I agreed with all of this up until Donald Trump. It's just that up until this point, our world leaders recognized the tenuous situation and threw in a splash of diplomacy to keep things from boiling over. This ban now signals to that side of the world that yes - we are at war with Islam, not just extremism. This will galvanize them further.
4. Planned Parenthood. Plenty of domestic terrorism going on there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anteater
You guys have all completely missed the point. Why am I not surprised that liberals can't tell the difference between discussing PEOPLE and discussing IDEOLOGY. Question: Islam originated in "which" part of the world? That's what I thought. I agreed the world was full of peaceful awesome Muslims. I'm talking about a specific part of the world and ground zero for the purest form of cultural and religious ideology for the Islamic faith.
Oh wait, I'm a bigot for talking about problems in Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Whoops! I also made a comparison point to the peaceful majority's practicing of Islam to the non-denominational Christians. That's the path of co-existence. But what can I expect from people with zero reading comprehension? Good grief.
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When you state that Islamic ideology is inherently violent, you apply that to every person that follows that religion. With claims like this, you can't separate the people from the ideology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anteater
Correct. Islam itself isn't the enemy, it's Wahhabism and related ideologies / interpretations of Islam.
One of the root issues is that you have a surprising amount of thought leaders in Islam itself who adhere to elements of Wahhabism, which is evidence that Islam as a whole is still going through the teething stage I discussed before. Since this ideology persists strongly in Islam's geological place of origin, I believe it contributes greatly to the violence we observe today.
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It has nothing to do with its origin. Again, replace Islam with Christianity and you get the same reaction, regardless of where you are in the world. The people there couldn't trust their government (since we've installed despot after despot in order to control the region) or the outside world (since everyone seems to want their oil). Who would you turn to? The only person who seems to be on your side and claims to have all the solutions. In this case, their religious leaders.
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Originally Posted by Anteater
And I love it when wonderful fellows like Frownland point out what I've already said in regards to the evolution of Christianity.
I already explained the big picture: Islam will never get to the point where Christianity is at as long as Wahhabism and related ideologies / interpretations of Islam continue to dominate the global conversation. I doubt you'd have so much fear of Islam worldwide if you could just take that one "part" of the diversity out of the equation. Take one or two bad apples out of the barrel and the whole stigma disappears.
(I'm agnostic by the way...not that anyone cares)
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It is ALREADY AT THAT POINT. This extremist attitude is a REGRESSION, and one that ANY belief system risks falling into.
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Originally Posted by Anteater
Yep. Scary how much influence they have despite being the global minority right?
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What influence? Seems to me to western world does what they want regardless of how much yelling the extremists do. Seeing it on the news all the time is not the same thing as having lots of influence.