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Old 03-27-2021, 04:12 AM   #73312 (permalink)
Marie Monday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor View Post
I think the view throughout history was that there are no such thing as homosexuals there's just sex thats moral or immoral

ironically Foccault would later agree with this sans the morality, that sexuality is a preference

this does make it fundementally different from race

but is it enough to say that thinking gays have had it worse than blacks is racist?
Yeah that's what I meant. I should have said pretending they don't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adidasss View Post
Either put up some solid arguments about that or shut up, ja? You sound like Trump wailing about the election being stolen from him. Something doesn't become true just because you keep repeating it.



The primary reason why I keep making this comparison is because racial discrimination is much better established and understood. It would be wonderful if I didn't have to compare apples and oranges just to make my point across, but here we are. Of course the origin and type of discrimination based on race and sexual orientation is very different, what I argue is that the effect of the discrimination on those groups is comparable.

I disagree that regarding gay people the world "just pretends we don't exist", that would in fact be quite a relief. Having anti-gay legislation means quite the opposite, specifically identifying a certain part of the population for discrimination for who they are. And even outside of legislation, which I would say is a real and palpable way of bringing home just where discrimination against gay people is in this day and age, gay people are subject to all kinds of abuse, physical and verbal, which again, is very much comparable to the abuse suffered by racial minorities.

I also don't understand how you can come to the conclusion that having anti-gay legislation is "just" meant to erase us, like attempting to eliminate an entire group of people is a minor annoyance? The vast majority of anti-gay legislation is not meant to shut people up, it is meant to eradicate us as we are, not to tolerate our existence as long as we keep our business private (which is the point of the anti-"gay propaganda" laws). Very different things but both of course incredibly problematic.

But really, the biggest issue I have in this discussion is the last paragraph, the attempt to assign a relative value of the respective insults by different people. We have a situation where a member of a specific sub-group of people (me, a gay man) is saying a word specifically meant to target people who are members of my sub-group should not be used in any context (which you thankfully agree with). That for me should be the end of the conversation. In my mind it should be very clear that the only people who get to decide the relative strength of a particular insult and how it should be used are exactly the people who it's directed against, directly or indirectly. Nobody asked white people how they feel about the n-word, it was black people who fought and largely succeeded in limiting its use by non-black people. The same should apply with the f-word. But for some reason it doesn't. Just like discrimination and prejudiced statements against gay people are not policed to the same extent racism is. And I think it should be. Discrimination of any sort should be fought against, hopefully one day without having to resort to comparing with other types of discrimination. But right now I think it's the best tool we can use to make people understand what exactly is happening.

I hope that makes sense.
1. By erasing/shutting up I meant what you're saying: not only keeping silent about being gay but also not daring to practise their sexuality. I usually phrase these things pretty sloppily, especially at 1am, but I though my meaning was clear from the context
2. One can understand the connotation of a slur even without being part of the targeted group

Ok that's it for me cleaning up my vague 1am mess bye
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I want to open a school for MB's lost boys and teach them basic coping skills and build up their self esteem and strengthen their emotional intelligence and teach them about vegetables and institutionalized racism and sexism and then they'll all build a bronze statue of me in my honor and my bronzed titties will forever be groped by the grubby paws of you ****ing whiny pathetic white boys.

Last edited by Marie Monday; 03-27-2021 at 04:21 AM.
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