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Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks
Let's not forget who struck first. As I said before (and many of you seem to be missing this) Isreal has been fighting for its very survival as a country since his founding. Isreal was wrong (in international law) to occupy parts of Lebanon and Palestine. But what the hell were they supposed to do? Just wait till everyone living on the out edge of Isreal is killed by missle attacks?
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And you'd think after fighting for its existance since its founding Israel would've learned that there are better ways to handle this situation. or maybe someone'll stop to think that maybe talking'll be safer.
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Originally Posted by rageagainstrocks
I think you mean if Isreal didn't exist the Arab world wouldn't feel the need to kill people simply based on their faith.
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You make it sound like Palestine and Lebanon haven't had citizens killed because of their faith. People all over the world are killed because of their faith. Look at the Ku Klux Klan in america. Look at bosnia. These things happen. Because people are prejudiced. People are killed for the color of their skin. Look at Darfur in Sudan.
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Originally Posted by rageagainstrocks
I have already said that killing innocents it's not acceptable and when it does happen it is regretable. But you can't deny that the culure these children are brought up in is one that praises suicide bombers, compares them to saints. Pictures of these men are plastered all over the place, with platitudes and praises scrawled all over them. I am NOT saying kill them all to prevent the possibility, I'm simply throw out the fact that the odds that they will commit an act of terrorism is high.
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And I guess you should throw in the fact that the nations in question aren't too developed as many others.
And you forget that these people(s) have been fighting for years long before Bush decided to go public with his intention on the crisis in the Middle East and his war on terrorism. I'll bet money that if 9/11 never happened this discussion wouldn't have lasted this long or gotten this far.
And the fact is these nations do not praise terrorists as saint. And children are not raised to believe that terrorists are saints. these people may think highly of the person/group that seems dedicated to avenging people they have lost or that they think can help make their life better. But their life isn't getting any better and the number of causlaities from both sides keeps going up and the process keeps on going. It's perpetual.
And you seem not to understand the loyalty these poeple haveton their faith. These people are willing to die for their beliefs. And in the process they want to take out as many of the enemy as they possibly can. And I understand the idea behind it. If you're gonna die, why not take your enemy with you? And sometimes I agree with that idea, but in this case I don't. You're stealing the life of someone's mom, someone's daughter, someone's dad, someone's brother, someone's sister. And all you're really ding is just adding more fuel to the fire.
But don't for once say that this is part of the culture. It is not part of the culture. You're in a do or die situation and possibly your friend or family member is gonna die. How the hell do you respond to that.
You seem to be rather civilized, so I'll ask you: someone kills someone you love or care deeply about, you're gonna want to punish that person or see that they are punished right? But it's never enough because no amount of punishment will bring that person back. No it's not culture, it's one of the imerfections of being human. You lose something, you're gonna want it back. You can't get it back, replace it. You lose your dad, the person that is repsonsible just got lost.
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Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks
Bull****. If anything it's the Palestinians and Lebanese who share Hitler's idealogy. Their clerics condemn the very fact that Isreal exists. They issue fatwa's and jihad's on the citizens of Isreal, THEY WISH TO COMMIT GENOCIDE. And disproportionate retribution? Maybe over the last few weeks. But you have to realize. Every time 1 Isreali dies it's the equivanlent of 45 Americans dying (the ratio is near there, maybe higher). It's a big deal. If 45 British citizens were killed by terrorist you'd want revenge as well correct? And it's not like Isreal is saying "Hey, let's bomb the hospital" They are legitimatly seeking targets, quite unlike the religious radicals.
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Hitler wanted a perfect world with the perfect race of people and only the perfect race of people. This lead to genocide.
Denying a nation's existance or refusing to believe or acknowledge it's existence isn't genocide it's avoidance (and possibly ignorance). Genocide is what's happening in Darfur.
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Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks
By not condeming the actions of the Terrorist groups (Hezbollah) that started this maybe?
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No. Hezbollah's goal is to keep Israelis out of Lebanon. Israelis crossed the border.
Same thing as if you have an intruder in your house, you're gonna want to keep them out by any means necessary or try to prevent something like that in the future. Granted I don't agree with all of their methods but the concept remains the same.
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Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks
The start of the action was against the group Hezbollah, a state sponsered terrorist organization. They might have been freedom fighters at one point. But freedom fighters don't tend to lauch missles at civilian homes and croweded market places do they?
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And how do you know that these civilian homes weren't a front for some threat against lebanon?
And if it wasn't then are you gonna have a moment of silence or something for the lives lost? I mean really you make it sound like you really care. And in fact, you may be curious and want to know more about it, but it doesn't really effect you and you're probably not doing anything to prevent it in the future now are you?
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Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks
The man in the red shirt lives his life under control (if he does at all) is because his compatriots decided that rather than talk, they'd rather throw stones, or launch RPG's, or fire AK-47s or blow themselves up. I'm not saying Isreal has not committed crimes. I'm sure they have. And the international community had better look into them and deal with it as neccessary, but I will side with the Isreali's 99.9% of the time. Why? Because they DID NOT start these conflicts.
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Even if they didn't start these conflicts they're a part of them and should make every effort as possible to put an end to them.
The US always sides with Israel and the US has enough military power to send ak-47s to Israel and I am certain that at this moment there is an Israeli armed with an AK-47.
So is Israel now just as guilty as Lebanon.
And is the US just as guilty for being powerful enough to send troops to Israel and weapons but not taking an even bigger step to help get this under control? If you're gonna side with Israel and go as far as to give them weapons, why not go as far as to help them fight the battle as well?
Now what happens? Tomorrow this thread will go on, Bush will still be an a$$, Hezbollah will still be a group and life will go on.
Nothing different is being done to change the way things are.
And really I feel a great deal of sympathy for Israel and Lebanon I really do. I can't imagine all the people mourning the loss of a family member or friend right now. And I shudder to think of those same people preparing themselves to dit all again tomorrow, but I can only feel so much sympathy.
I have no one i'm really close to in either nation or rather no one that is of grave importance in my life so I can only muster but so much emotion on the topic.
But I think that if the US really wanted to side with Israel, they could do more than they're doing now to help alleviate some of the problems/tensions between the two nations.
But at the same time I feel as though that the US has intervened enough and look at what it's lead to? Lebanon has weapons, israel has weapons and people are still dying.
I think that at some point someone at the UN should shut Bush up and take this matter to a different level and maybe people we still start to take a different approach to this.
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Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks
Again, when your people (Isreal) are being blown up in a shopping mall, reaction is needed. These occupations are not pre-emptive or unsolicited. They are reactions to the racial hatred of their neighbors.
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Someone makes a racial slur/comment towards you, do you kill them? Most likely not. Part of it has to do with where you live.
The Middle East is something of a rather religious part of the world and since many of the countries are not as developed as say England or the US, people tend to die for these sorts of things. Whether it's because of lack of education or poverty people tend to kill themselves first and take the enemy with them and the process continues.