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Originally Posted by Crowquill
Who gives a shit? Thousands of parents have had their children taken
from them and killed for a lie. They were killed to better the lives
of corrupt politicians, you should care. Apathy is America's problem.
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I agree with part of that, I think poor planning on our part has played a big role on the casualties we've had. We were under equipped, under funded, didn't have enough men, the way we executed the war was horrible. That much I agree with.
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We aren't spreading democracy to the Middle East, you're ignorant to
history so the fact that you disagree with with my assertion that the
US doesn't support democracies doesn't really matter to me. Had you
maybe, read a book, something, you would agree as well. You don't
though, so you've got to let a 16 year old kid on a music forum school
you on history. It's pretty sad.
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My history aint too bad, I know Nicaragua, Cambodia, Israel. I don't think any of that accounts for current events in Iraq.
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Iraq is the Iraqi's problem, not ours. They posed no threat to us.
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Ok, according to you, we invaded their land just for oil and we left a big mess, so its their problem now? We have no responsability for it at all?
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Do you understand the meaning of 'imperialism'? The British didn't
plan on pulling out of India. The Belge didn't plan on pulling out of
the Congo. We don't plan on pulling out of the area we stole from
Mexico in the 1850's, imperialism doesn't work like that.
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But we DO plan to pull out of Iraq eventually. Or did someone forget to inform you about that?
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Yes, capitalism has always been the root of imperialism. Lands were
invaded and used to supply natural resources for the invading
countries industrial machine. That is how it worked back then, and it
is how the US works now. We are ruling the Iraqis with an Arab facade.
The fact that you think 'arab facade' is fiction again shows your
ignorance to history. Read.
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Calling Israel a facade is history. I'm talking about Iraq.
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Good for you, I'm not sure that democracy has a thing to do with you
collecting disability, that is more a socialist aspect of our country
than democratic.
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The idea of socialism is "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need". I don't see being unemployed and not paying taxes but getting disability is socialist. In fact, I'm the kinda guy a socialist would dispise just because of my status.
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What about it changed? In the 1850's we did it with Mexico.
In the 1950's we did it with Iran.
In the 1980's we did it in Nicaragua and El Salvador, and that was
Reaganite politics, which George Bush practises.
Our policy didn't change. If it did, explain how.
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Bush is different from Reagan on a number of issues. Especially on Free Trade.
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One example? Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador, we refused to support Fidel
Castro overthrow his dictator in Cuba because his dictator allowed US
companies to control Havana and make tons of money.
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We refused to help Fidel Castro? OMG, how horrible.
Like we ever expected democracy from that son of a bitch.
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Thats 4 examples,
and those are off the top of my head. I'd find more if I took the time
to search it. We hate democracies that aren't US supported, and when
you have the US controlling your democracy, it isn't really a
democracy. We overthrew Mossadeq because Iran set an example,
Nicaragua set an example, it is possible to have a functional
democracy without the US pulling the strings. That is why we overthrow
them.
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Almost every current goverment in the world identifies itself as a democracy (Saudi Arabia is one major exception). So why not go to war with the entire world? Why not go to war with the EU? We're not pulling their strings are we?
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We are not in the democracy business. We are in the business of
installing pro-American leaders who will allow us to exploit their
countries. Why do you think we hate Hugo Chavez so much? He won't let
the US exploit Venezuelan oil. We can't have that, which is why we try
and assassinate him.
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Sure, thats our reason, but Hugo is someone with a horrible human rights record and a soft spot for terrorism, I won't lose any sleep over his assassination.
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You fail to realize that history is important, mostly because you're
enormously uneducated in history so you cannot see that the things
which happen in Nicaragua in the '80s, what happened in Iran in the
'50s, is happening today.
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You refuse to give even one example because you dont have one. Your understanding is simple, if we invade a country, its just like every country we have invaded, that is your reasoning.
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The circumstances are exactly the same. The
wording is essentially the same. Switch 'communism' to 'terrorism' and
change 'White-Man's burden' to 'spreading democracy'.
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Its not the same. Even so, who cares? It has nothing to do with the main point which is that Saddam was a problem and we did a good thing by removing him from power.
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Its the same
thing boo boo. But good job at not realizing how much of a role
history plays, you play right into the governments hands. If the
people in the 80's hadn't forgotten the Iran-Contra Affair, Reagan
would have had a lower approval rating than GW now. If you actually
knew your countries history you'd be skeptical, but the comments you
make later in this post, which I will reply to, just prove how
ignorant you are to your own country's history.
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I know about the Trail of Tears, slavery, Cambodia, Nicaragua. I know it all god f*cking dammit. Nicaragua didn't slaugter thousands of its own people. Cambodia were not a potential threat to US homeland security. Nicaragua and Cambodia didn't lie to the UN about developing WMDs. Yet you draw such paralels, you're the one who dosen't know sh*t about history.
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You highly doubt it? The only reason it was a mistake was because the
public found out about it. The politicians were making out like
bandits, why wouldn't they do it again? I mean, they already have.
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Prove it.
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Fiction? Are you really THAT ignorant to history? Lord Curzon, the
British foreign secretary said after WWI. "We must create an 'Arab
facade' ruled and administrated under British guidance and controlled
by a native Mohammedan, and as far as possible an Arab staff." This
should all, he continued, "be veiled by constitutional fictions."
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Your remark "we will start an arab fecade in Iraq". Thats what I called fiction.
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This is exactly what we are doing today. The Iraqi council consists of
25 men, all appointed by the Director of Reconstruction and
Humanitarian Assistance Paul Bremer. So the government is ruled by 25
men, all appointed by an American representing American interests. Arab
facade? Of course it is. If you're too naive to see that, fine, but
don't say what I've written is 'fiction'. Aran facade is the exact
word used by Lord Curzon after WWI. Learn some history boo boo.
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Lord Curzon wasn't talking about Iraq. DO YOU HAVE NO CONCEPT OF REALITY?
What do you know of the 25 men, their policies, their interests? Do you distrust them just because they were appointed by an American?
I think its good that an outside source appoints them anyway. I know exactly whats going to happen if we let Iraqis appoint them. You do too.
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We don't harbor terrorists? Again, your ignorance to history digs you
into a hole here.
Orlando Bosch- Former CIA-backed terrorist who is responsible for the
bombing of a civilian Cuban airliner which killed all 73 people on
board, including 5 North Korean Olympic fencers, also responsible for
the bombing of a Polish civilian airliner, for which he was arrested
in 1968 in Venezuela. While on parole, he fled to the United States
with the help of the US Ambassador to Venezuela, when he arrived in
Florida he was arrested by the INS for violating parole, however, when
he threatened to reveal information about his work with the CIA,
George H. W. Bush pardoned him. He now lives in Miami, Florida. He has
been described by the CIA as an 'anti-Castro terrorist umbrella
organization' and the former Attorney General Dick Thornburg called
him an 'unrepentant terrorist'. The government protects him though,
which I suppose obliterates your point outright. But there's more.
Emmanuel Constant- Founder of FRAHP, a Hatian death squad responsible
for the deaths of over 4000 Hatians who supported ousted president
Jean-Baptiste Aristade. When Aristade was restored to power he fled to
the US, where he was arrested. However, once again he threatened to
divulge information about his workings with the CIA in the 90's, Bill
Clinton ordered him to be freed. Now he lives in Queens, New York.
That is twice that your point has been proven incorrect because of
your ignorance to history.
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Two copy and pasted examples, not a big demographic of people now is it? I DARE you to say thats worse than the terrorists being harbored in Venezuela or Iraq. Or hell, Canada and the UK.