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Originally Posted by Freebase Dali
Vegangelica...
I really wish you'd start raising your own children instead of letting someone else's statistics do it for you.
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Freebase Dali,
My method of understanding reality is to use my feelings and personal experiences as well as the body of knowledge acquired through science. I feel it is very possible to use statistics *and* raise one's child using what one feels is the best method.
Data do not lie (unless a researcher fudged them), but *interpretations* of data can be incorrect or hasty when people do not understand the limitations of the data. One common error, for example, is to forget that "correlation does not equal causation." With respect to spanking, this means that data on the bad outcomes of spanking do not necessarily mean those outcomes are *caused* by the spanking itself. Robust studies try to control for other factors and try to make sure research subjects are of the same income level, ethnicity, etc. When I read of studies by researchers who know the limitations of their data and conclude that spanking is a serious risk factor for many problems, the scientist in me is strongly persuaded that spanking harms beyond the pain experienced at that moment by the child...and I argue based on my emotion and feelings about human rights that this pain IS harm in and of itself, and thus should be avoided.
I fear you are throwing out a wonderful source of human knowledge when you do not appear to value scientific data, which provide a vast and wonderful understanding of how reality works, an understanding much greater than what we can see with our own minds and our own limited experiences.
Freebase, I always read your posts very carefully and appreciate that you think through things carefully as well. Plus, as you know, I have great respect for your musical ability and knowledge. I am not involved professionally in music like you are (if I recall correctly), and so cannot give good and clear musical production advice like you can, but I *am* in the science profession, and so with that background I offer to you the following article, which I find to be a very fair assessment of the state of research on spanking and its problems:
Straus, M.A., and E.M. Douglas (2008) "Research on spanking by parents: implications for public policy." The Family Psychologist: Bulletin of the Division of Family Psychology (43) 24:12-20.
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP78%2...0-%20CP-08.pdf
Forgive me, Toretorden, if you or someone else cited this article already! I did try to read through most of the posts before I first added one, but I can't remember now if this article was mentioned in detail.
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A summary of the article by Straus and Douglas (2008) http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/02...ems/1990.html:
A meta-analysis of spanking studies found 93 percent agreement among studies that spanking can lead to such problems as delinquent and anti-social behavior in childhood along with aggression, criminal and anti-social behavior and spousal or child abuse as an adult.
The researchers suggested that children whose parents spanked, slapped, hit or threw objects at them may have a greater chance of physically or verbally coercing a sexual partner, engaging in risky sexual behavior or engaging in masochistic sex, including sexual arousal by spanking. The researchers warned, however, that this is not a one-to-one or causal relationship.
The study also found that 90 percent of U.S. parents spank toddlers.
After 30 years of studying corporal punishment, Murray Straus, a spanking expert, concluded, “parents should never, ever spank because, although it does work, it’s no better than non-hitting methods that don’t have harmful side effects. If there was an FDA for spanking, they’d say use an alternative that doesn’t have harmful side effects.”
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The conclusion is that governments and health organizations have an ethical duty, based on the research, to institute policies that educate parents
never to use corporal punishment (punishment that causes pain but not lasting physical damage). I agree with this conclusion due to my "gut" feeling that punishing a child using pain is wrong, due to the experiences I've had as a child and parent, *and* due to the research.
Reading back through the posts in this thread, I hear several times people voicing the view that parents who use corporal punishment (causing their children pain but not physical damage) "don't like to do it/aren't happy doing it." Similarly, FB, you described how your mother, a victim of abuse, was not allowed by your father to spank you and your siblings. If spanking were not a traumatic, troubling behavior, then I suspect people would not feel troubled using it. If spanking is so healthy and helpful and distinct from abuse, then there should be no reason to prevent a victim of abuse from being the one who spanks children.
--Veg