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Originally Posted by Burning Down
I'm surprised Vegangelica hasn't been to this thread yet! Anyways, not shaving is a personal choice. I don't think social "norms" should determine whether a woman shaves her armpits or not.
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Believe me, if I'd seen this thread before now, I would have entered the conversation earlier.
I agree with your viewpoint on shaving, Burning Down. I don't want society to pressure women to feel bad about a part of their bodies...so bad that they have to remove any sight of it.
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Originally Posted by Nine Black Poppies
the idea that not shaving is "disgusting" is part of a larger institution that creates the idea that a woman's value is based on how much she appeals to men. That is a fundamental inequality and it's played out in an often-subtle pressure that you're not going to understand, no matter what I type--that's the nature of privilege, and men ARE a privileged class, especially when it comes to physical appearance. And like it or not, however enlightened we like to claim we are, we are also products of that larger culture, which is why it's NOT equivalent to a guy having or not having a beard, especially on a level beyond individuals.
To be fair, even I'm not above this cultural idea--I shave my armpits and trim everything else and I do so mostly for aesthetic reasons (it does feel better, but I think that's only because I'm used to it). Likewise, I don't consider this the fault of any particular male--you're used to what you're used to, you find attractive what you find attractive. That's neither here nor there.
But I am troubled by how dismissively people participate in the double standard without being willing to challenge themselves. You said you wouldn't date or have sex with a girl who had body hair--what if the girl of your dreams in every other way has decided not to shave for a while when you meet her? I know that's sort of an overly glib thing to say, but I'm trying to make a point--when you start saying things like "Any girl I'd want would have to ________" unequivocally, that's a foundation for sexism, because you're not the only guy doing that and there's a power imbalance still in play.
I'm sitting here typing this out and thinking "Wait, wait. C'mon, I shave. And my first inclination with another girl is to prefer it. Maybe I'm being a little oversensitive." Yet what causes me to think that? Why am I in a position where I might even feel the need to be sensitive? Just something to think about.
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Nine Black Poppies, I agree completely that the unwritten rule that women need to shave or else face extreme ridicule in public is part of a larger patriarchal view that women's value, more so than men's value, is derived from their appearance.
Recent research papers have explored the origin of the hairlessness norm for women in Western society during the last 100 years. The reason this is important is that before that time, as far as we can tell, men in the U.S., U.K., etc., didn't have any notion that a woman's body hair was ugly. In other words, the view that women's body hair is ugly is constructed by people in society and isn't written in stone.
I stopped shaving in my 20s because I felt I could no longer, through my actions, strengthen a social norm with which I disagree so fundamentally. I decided to accept my body as it is, rather than continue to pretend that I don't have body hair and give power to those who define women's underarm hair and leg hair as gross.
You asked what happens when a woman in a relationship stops shaving. One reason I am outspoken in opposing the hairless norm for women is that I want to try to help change society so that other women don't have to go through what I did. I hope someday that men won't feel disgusted by women's natural bodies, and women won't have to face this disgust.
In my situation, I had been dating someone I loved very much, and vice versa, for 2 years. We lived together, knew each other's family, enjoyed being together (yes, that way), had much in common...and were really on track to becoming life partners. But when I finally decided to do what I'd wanted to do for years (but had felt too scared to do)...stop shaving...he found out that my underarm hair revolted him. The same hair he had under his very own arms on ME became revolting.
Seeing someone who loves you react with revulsion, against his will...and then say that either you shave or we can't be together...is...painful. I felt hurt to be judged so much based on my appearence. I also wondered this: if I had to be "pretty" and sleek and "delicate" all the time for him, how was he ever going to truly be a partner and supportive when I did something REALLY natural, like give birth to our child in a gush of blood and sweat, or die for that matter? I chose to end our relationship rather than act as if a part of my body were so awful that I had to shave it off and give in to his requirement that I shave. I couldn't bear to be with someone, even someone whom I loved dearly, who couldn't bear to be with me as I truly am as a human.
I abhor it when people pressure women to appear "delicate." If we as women are truly more delicate than men in some ways, then fine...but don't try to MAKE us be "delicate" and childlike in appearance.
I also loathe the idea that just because something is a cultural norm, we "have to follow it." ALL of you create social norms, and ALL of you can change these norms. We create them after all, so we can change them.
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Originally Posted by infantrysgirl18
Coming from a woman though shaving is also for health reason. It just feels gross to have hairy arm pits. Although its a pain in the ass to shave every couple of days, it makes me feel better and less gross. I do this for my own benefit and health not because its more attractive to certain people. If someone is really attracted to me the would focus less on the hair and more on me in any case. Besides hair is natural. It was until relatively recently that women started shaving it.
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If shaving armpit hair were truly for a health reason, why aren't men usually shaving it?
Shaving underarm hair is *not* for a health reason, Infantry. Shaving hair is cultural. I agree with you that hair is natural. I wish it were true that someone who is really attracted to you would focus less on the hair and more on you as a person. My experience says that for men who have been brain-washed by this cultural norm, doing so is difficult.
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Originally Posted by right-track
I wouldn't go that far as to say it's gross and disgusting.
That's a little unfair.
I personally think it's just unladylike like and German.
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Definitely German!
Unfortunately, many men (and women) DO feel women's underarm hair is gross and disgusting, right-track.
Men calling women unladylike because they have their body hair is ironic, I feel, since men are usually at their most ungentlemanly when they put a woman down because of her appearance.
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Originally Posted by Dr.Seussicide
The fact of the matter is, however, that underarm hair on females, is an unattractive trait. What's so difficult in understanding that, I haven't the slightest. It may be seen as a double standard, a blatant one at that, or a preference or what have you, but the truth is that despite what either of you females say, you're certain to shave it, especially if looking for a mate. Because in essence, it isn't aesthetically pleasing to the eyes. Everyone has their specific preference, but certain things are just simply generally accepted societal conventions.
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Societal conventions are constructed by people...and can be deconstructed by people, rather than simply accepted as unchangeable. Underarm hair is neither fundamentally attractive nor unattractive on women or on men. Biologically, it simply signals sexual maturity. Saying that "in essence, women's underarm hair isn't aesthetically pleasing to the eyes" is false, Dr. Seuss. It's just hair, and how people view it is based largely on their cultural upbringing and experiences.
And no...not all women are certain to shave their hair, but it isn't easy to face the stares and the ridicule, the revulsion, the pressure, the hurtful comments from loved-ones. Still, refusing to shave is a great way to find friends who accept you and love you for who you are.
Stopping shaving was one of the best decisions I've ever made for myself, because accepting my body hair helped me experience greater self-acceptance overall. I refused to tear myself down emotionally...or physically. No longer defining yourself by other people's negative views of your body is very liberating.