Music Theory Thread?
 

For all of those who are interested in the language and concepts of written music and its art form, can we open a main thread about music theory to provide a place for forum members to question and learn about theory from other members?

Thanks :)

Are you doing this for the purpose of promoting your book?

No. But thanks for viewing.

I'm a theory teacher and am surprised that a music website has open discussions about many subjects, but doesn't have a theory section. Or is this website designed just to talk ABOUT music in a general sense but not teach anything as far as musicianship goes?

Banter can be seen as just a community with discussion. But I'm thinking there must be some musicians that come here that have a theory question, but no place to post it. I bet this forum would get that much more traffic if it was a place to gossip, review, AND learn.

You be our guest and go ahead then.

I don't think there are enough people here who read and write music well enough to merit such a thread. Or to be able to answer complex questions regarding music theory. I honestly doubt that there are people here who could tell me what Phrygian II harmonization is, even in layman's terms, without looking it up first on Google.

Also, I find that people who are music students and who need to take classes in music theory often already have a support network in real life that they can go to if they need help with homework. When I need help with my music homework, I will often go to my boyfriend first with my questions and we can work out the solutions together, before I go to post a question about it online.

Is theory really all that beneficial to ones music capabilitys? Is it necessary to be able to able to write,play, and sing music?

I'm just saying it'd be nice to have another place on the web to answer questions. And perhaps people don't know what Phrygian II harmonization is, but when they look it up online, they're still confused. So they could ask on the forum and then have someone who knows what it is explain not only what it is, but what its function, how to find it easily, and how to apply it all at once. That would be useful, I'd think.

Besides - the forum's already here. It'd just be making another topic.

And I'd do it myself, only I'm not an admin. I'm thinking there should be a theory subject off the main forum, where people could post threads about different topics; not some a little subthread that would have ALL questions in one long post.

This site is really more about listening to music than making it (though a decent number of us do make music), but if you want to make a theory thread go for it.

Ah, see, you asked for a thread, not for a forum. That's why I said go for it.

If you want a thread, go ahead and make one. That in and of itself would probably cover any demand for information.

If you're serious about learning the theory behind music I wouldn't recommend asking online, between the amount of misinformation out there and different terminologies you'd be much better off finding a more reliable, consistent source. Also some textbooks tend to oversimplify theory and explain parts of it off as "tricks" focusing too much on the how rather than the why. Either go to college or pick up some of the texts from the greats (Riemann, Schenker, Fux, Schoenberg ect.)

Lol guys. I want a forum topic. Not a simple thread. I want something that an admin would make as a general topic, so we can make threads in the said topic.

As for my personal education, I've done the music college thing. I've studied music from Bach to Bartok. I'm just hoping to be able to aide other people in music theory. I teach it for a living. I'm looking to help any others that would otherwise be lost in theory, and perhaps exchange ideas on other higher concepts. I know jazz theory is still a bit of a grey area for me, though I can guess most of it correctly anyway. Is there any way to go about doing this?

The best we can offer is for you to make a thread and a mod to sticky it so it stays at the top of the page.

Suppose if someone asks "How do you make a major triad?" and then (in the same thread), someone asks "If I'm in Bb dorian and I want to modulate to Db major, how could I do that?", might that be confusing if in the same thread?

I think for a musician like myself, yes, knowing theory can be really beneficial. But for a garden variety guitar player, no it's not necessary to know all the ins and outs of music notation.

No, because I have the ability to answer two separate questions. I don't see how it would be confusing to have two questions that are of a similar topic in the same thread.

Why don't you start with just a single thread for music theory and we'll see how it goes from there. If it seems like it's getting so many responses that it could warrant its own forum then we can discuss doing that.

Suppose the one question turns into a discussion spanning 20+ comments. This is now mixed in with 10 other questions. Wouldn't it be difficult to filter through and follow the course of just the one question?

If I were to make one thread myself, where do you feel I should place it? I'm thinking General Music would be the best bet.

And as for being able to know theory... yes. It would be beneficial for anyone playing any instrument. Music is a language. If you can give a good public speech, but can't read or write, are you really that good?

A 20 comment thread is not particularly long, I don't think people would get confused. And, like I said, if the response becomes so overwhelming we can then discuss creating its own forum.

I think the best place would probably be "Talk Instruments".

:laughing: is that sarcasm Jans? Could we start a forum for poo stories as well?

Lets be honest here, I'm finishing up a music degree and I have no idea what that is without looking it up :laughing:

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. If there were such a demand for theory answers as to make it impossible to follow a discussion, we would already have the forum. There is no point in getting this excited before you've seen what the thread is like.

To be fair, I think the demand for information on these matters is not particularly high on this forum in my opinion.
If you think about it, the people who would need information on music theory will likely be limited to people studying it as a university course, who will have probably a few, specialised questions that even on a big forum will come in at a rate of about once per week or so.

Everyone else will have questions on music theory which won't range much more than "what is an anacrusis?" for example, which was one of my questions three years ago, and that's easily solved by a simple google.

The long and short of it is that the kind of questions you'll get will probably fill up a single thread very slowly, never mind an entire forum.

I have a similar thread for support resources regarding production, mixing and mastering, and what I aim to do is compile and categorize replies that deal with a particular area, in the main post.
This might be a workable solution for you.
The easy way to do that is to simply link to a particular post in the thread. When you have a few pages of theory, then you'll be able to edit your first post with the categorized links so that others can conveniently jump to any particular reference.

In addition to this, you can also create a FAQ section in the first post that addresses short questions and answers that don't require a link in one of your categories.

Well I like the idea of a thread like this. Im not sure if this is the best forum for it. Certainly a few of us who care somewhat about theory and enjoy learning about it.

Honestly, my take on this is that its going to die immediately. The vast majority have no interest in music theory. Most of the remainder are already in university for this, myself included, and of the few who aren't, there are far more resources available through google than a thread could provide. Largely more reliable resources too, rather than the half remembered ramblings of three or four different people in an informal thread.

No worries, I'm also finishing up a music degree and had no idea what it was until 3 months ago!

so at this point we have 3 full pages of comments about whether or not we should be talking about the topic of music theory on mb.

nice.

go for it is what i say.

I'd suggest a thread in the Song Writing, Lyrics and Poetry forum. I mean, if you want to write a piece for flute and guitar and need to learn some music theory first, that's related to song writing .. right?

Theory isn't just for song writing and composition. If you're learning to play a piece of music, say for piano, it can be beneficial as well.

Imagine you have 64 bars of music to learn. You realize easily that the form is AB with repeat signs. Now you have 2 sections of 32 bars to learn. Smaller pieces.

Then you realize that each of those 32 bar sections are just made up of 8 bar phrases, 4 each. Simpler still. Then you realize that the phrases are actually duplicates of each other, in some regards. Without playing a note, you are able to break it down in to just having to learn about 22 bars of actual music instead of 32.

From there, you look at the first phrase. It starts with the notes C D E F G and then a high C on top. The left hand has C E G E G E G E. Well that's 13 notes. 13 things to memorize, right? Not if you know your theory!

I'd look at that, and say "oh there's a C major five finger pattern in the right hand, topped off with a high tonic note. And the left hand is just an alberti bass in C major. 13 notes, turns into "C major" to me. 13 has turned into 1.

The next measure does something like A G F E D (descending) C in the right, with F A C A C A C A in the left hand. Now anyone worth their salt would see that it's just a similar function as the first measure, just in F major.

If you do this throughout the piece, you can turn a significantly intricate sounding piece into about 10 concepts in your head. The simplification sums it up, makes you think in a large scope, and makes it easier to digest, rather than the novice that's still stuck in the first measure trying to remember that C goes to D then to E then to F and then G, and then it goes to (counts the lines and spaces...)that's a D I mean C!.

Hello. I am a guitar teacher at my city's First Assembly Church for a living. Any instrumentalist of any age and of any experience can learn to play music by ear or of any other means. You do not need theory to learn how to play a certain instrument, or to sing, that is why it is called MUSIC THEORY and not MUSIC LAW. Until music becomes I law I do not condone that people need to learn it in order to actually play or understand music.

With that aside. My main purpose of going to this forum was to discuss my passion of music and see other's relativity to my own. I did not come on here with music theory in mind, If anyone wanted to learn music theory they would not go to a forum like Music Banter which is generally well -- bantering about music, its genres, its styles, its people, its general application in today's society.

As for me, if I need anything I go to see my mentors, my colleagues, or teor&a to brush up on music, even though I have posted in one of the general music theory friends in the boards.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...nter/EGG02.pngAnd you can learn to converse in a society without being able to read or write, but just be able to talk to people. Would you feel comfortable going through your life as an illiterate in your native language? How do you learn a new piece by yourself if you don't have someone to play it for you? If you can't read notes, then you're useless unless you have another source to play it for you first. That's acting very dependent, and a selfish approach to learning to be a decent musician.

In the theory of music, there are certain rules. Rights and wrong. A D Major Tertian Triad is spelled D F# A, for example. Very clear-cut things. However, it's an art-form, so there are rules to be broken. However if you know notational rules that are standards the world over in music theory, you can read like an accomplished musician, rather than an amateur that has to count his/her lines and spaces for every single note.

Also, I'm glad you have mentors and colleagues, but there are some students that are self-taught and may not have access to such a variety of sources. It's nice to see that you don't need this section, but I think it's a little bigoted to say that everyone should go look for other sources of information rather than be able to come here, a MUSIC forum, and learn something too, rather than just gossip about the latest hit singles.

@venj: While I agree with nearly everything you said you may be missing one large point. Many of the modern era's greatest musicians did not read music.

The undisputed king of guitar jimi hendrix could not read music. #2 Srv also could not read music.

In the world of classical music and music study in schools I think you are right. Being able to learn a piece on paper is very important if not the most important thing. BUT rock/blues etc musicians do not learn that way. If you are playing with a band or another instrumentalist you must learn your part by quickly getting it by ear and watching them play it. If you have every been to a blues jam it relies largely on the trained ear and watch where the other person is playing.

To think less of a musician because they put stock in their ear instead of notation is simply absurd and pretentious.

I'm saying that to be fully accomplished, you should be well rounded. Ear training is a large part of it as well. But being able to sight read can be as valuable a skill as mimicking something by ear. Audio representation of a piece of music isn't always available. And to communicate with other musicians effectively, the language that is music theory is an efficient way to communicate scales, chords, phrases, and ideas.

It's more precise to say, "From the downbeat of the B section, where the dominant figure goes to the tonic" rather than "Okay when I do this ::plays::".

I understand a lot of the greats didn't read. But they also didn't have the internet, access to books, etc. In such a social and literate society that we have today, there's little excuse for some aspiring musician to just ignore music theory. I'm sure there were great people in history that never learned to read nor write their native language. Is that a good argument to say that we shouldn't read/write either if we can communicate verbally?

I was only referring to the reading of notation. Im all for theory.

Huh. I can't picture knowing theory without being able to read it. To me they're the same thing. But I guess you could verbalize Major/minor without knowing what it looks like on paper, but rather what it feels like in your hands when you play. Strange concept.

I agree with you there, then. Knowledge of theory and how to apply it is more important than being able to read it on paper. I just think writing things down make it easier to record, use, and share. But then I'm a pretty visual learner, so that could be a biased statement. I've done so much visual / handwritten theory that I can do it in my head. Everything from naming chords' and scales' notes, calling up terms, and so on have become second nature to me. I don't have to consult an instrument; I just visualize. So I guess there's something to be said about not needing to have it on paper after all.

That being said, I'm thinking the ideal musician would be able to read and write, as well as be able to think about it just mentally, and still further being able to use his/her ear to extract information accurately and quickly. Imagine if you had these 'super powers' as they were. You would be unstoppable. Then your only limit would be how good your fingers are in picking up new instruments.

If you're looking to work in the music business you would be looked down on if you can't read music, it would make you harder to work with so why wouldn't they just find someone else who can do it?
and yes the same can be said for someone with a tin ear but I'm not sure why you're treating the ability to read music and having a good ear as being mutually exclusive, every music degree would require you to be fairly adept at melodic, harmonic and rhythmic dictation, you would most certainly be expected to play by ear in a classical setting too, directors tend to be short tempered and staring dumbfounded after he hums something for you to play wouldn't end well.

i dont think theories and that sort of stuff is not directly related to writing good music and that sort of art. i think the artists own humanness and expressions and feelings makes the songs he writes a precious piece of art.