It seems that we both just have different ideas of what a healthy forum should be. I personally think that we control ourselves well enough that we don't need these new enforcement measures. I can understand your point of view, thinking that a code of law set in stone would benefit everyone, even if I think that such a code is much more soulless than the fluid set that has gotten Music Banter this far. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and let others decide for themselves how they feel about it.

Cracking down on all of Music Banter for the petty things that occasionally go down in The Lounge is less like raiding a thieves den, and more like putting an entire city under martial law just because one neighborhood has a mild crime problem.

I don't have to disagree; Music Banter does it for me. Just look at all of the current threads. Even though we just went through one of the most tense moments in recent history, with Urban leaving after I pushed him too far, things are already back to normal. The members here would have had every right to bash me in every thread, yet almost all of the fighting was confined to just one. And even then, most members either ignored the thread completely, or went in purely to calm things down.

It didn't spill out. And though it made people tense, it ultimately didn't affect anything. Last night's fight in the "Your Day" thread got pretty nasty as well, but pretty much everyone has already moved past it, and it also didn't affect the Music Forums. The members here are much more mature and responsible than your "den of thieves" analogy makes them out to be. They self-moderate, and they do a pretty good job of it. They have proven that there is no need to put restrictions on them.

Look, I get your point, I really do. If people have nothing to hide, than why should they be worried about more strict moderation, right? I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that. It's the same argument that a pushy cop makes. "Who cares if I pat people down every chance I get? If they've got nothing to hide than it shouldn't matter." "Why won't you let me into your car/house without a warrant? You've got nothing to hide, right?" In theory, you might think they're correct to say that, since an innocent person shouldn't have a reason to not jump through their hoops. But they're also stressing people out, restricting them from going about their day, and so on. The only way to justify the pushy behavior is if it actually does help things, but in the case of MB, we already self moderate to the point where constant pat downs would just be a fruitless annoyance. We've proven that even when really bad things happen, we don't let it go too far.

The thread is not really about whether or not my suggestion would decrease rule breaking in the long term. It would. But the thread is really a suggestion that this is implemented.

When the suggestion is understood by the people it should reach and their concerns have been raised and discussed, then /end thread.

I was only teasing.I don't dissagree with you completely.

Well, I suppose I've said everything I have to say. You know how I feel about the proposal, and where I stand. I'll give everyone else a chance to discuss this for awhile. :laughing:

I'm a biologist and we talk a lot about how nature selects for various traits, like white fur in the snow or perhaps long necks or what have you.

Musicbanter is also an environment and it too selects for various traits in its members. The current MB environment selects for users who at the very least can cope with the status quo and possibly contribute to it and thrive in it. That our more recent members are happy with the freedom here - bickering and backstabbing and all - is to be expected.

If the site remains as it is, that's the sort of users it will continue to accumulate. Meanwhile, it will also continue to alienate others who don't like this environment.

I think what I'm suggesting is not harsh enough to alienate those who like the current situation (at least not most) while "strict" enough to make the site appeal to many of those who today would feel alienated by it.

:clap:

I guess i'm not done here quite yet, though I'll try to stay out of the main debate to keep it from going in circles...

Tore, I have a request for you: Please send me a PM, listing these supposed trolls that natural selection has caused to overrun Music Banter. If you can name more than three blatant flamers that have yet to be banned or driven away, I will rethink this whole matter. Because from what I've seen, the most popular and noticed people on Music Banter are the supportive ones. They're the ones that everyone pays attention to and loves, and there are as many of them as there have ever been.

I'll be honest and admit that Urban's leaving is one of the reasons why I've brought this up - again. I think it's always relevant, but it was yet another reminder as to why. Those who have been here a while have seen many great members disappear. It is my belief that many of those great members probably left because they didn't like the environment here, the late Urban included.

Sooner or later, people get fed up with it. Those who don't are the ones who thrive on it.

No it's not. Rule enforcement happens in a non-disruptive manner - in infractions and PMs stating why. If someone is punished for something they did in a discussion you're in, it's not a given you'd ever notice.

So nice that Urban not being here is something you consider "normal". Sorry for the cheap shot, but Musicbanter is like a tower of bricks and every time someone like Urban leaves, that's like removing a big one from the foundations. If something erodes piece by piece, it might not look different one day to the next. But if you go away for a year or two and come back, the difference may be apparent.

In my opinion, if a fight between two members has broken out on the boards and they're breaking rules, things have already gone too far. The rules are supposed to prevent this and what use are they if they can't?

What is too far in your opinion? I guess Urban leaving is not too far?

A sad thing about the current environment is that it pulls you down with it, even when you loathe it. I've gotten into fight (or fights?) with Sansa .. I think you end up being part of the problem even when you don't want to.

The mods are willing to protect members from being trolled, it's just that no one takes advantage of it. For instance, in the new League of Legends thread that Yorke made the mods told him to report any off topic posts, and they will remove them.

We have the power to remove troll posts but no one reports anything. The mods are willing to enforce rules, but they generally don't do it on their own unless the situation gets to a point where they consider it to be out of control.

Edit: Big3 and GB have also said they don't really enjoy this place anymore because of the discussion.

Edit2: I think you should try and change their mind on what = out of control, instead of implementing an entirely new infraction policy.

Dude Urban leaving big deal,Mojo big deal Ped big deal.To me anyways.

I probably won't because it's beside the point which is that in a different environment, we'd all behave better towards eachother. It's not really about any one or three members.

As I mentioned earlier, my suggestion should be relatively troll-robust. If it was up and running okay, I'd say unban some of the old trolls and give them a try. Perhaps the environment being a little more predictable (and perhaps friendlier) would make it easier for them to adapt.

I agree with everything tore has said in this thread and agree with the suggestion.

I am not sure if we are casting a vote but please count my vote as a consideration for the decision.

In addition, I think there should be all new moderators and I also think the way moderators are appointed should be changed.

This board is small because of all the reasons tore stated in this thread but I have said this many times here. It appears most of the members here don't want the board to be bigger, are not open to new ideas and enjoy the clique mentality of the board.

This board will remain small if no changes are made not that any of the members here care but just saying.

My experience with point infraction systems is that they are just as inconsistent and subjective as what we have here. Some mods see something as infraction-worthy while others don't which just leads to confusion and finger-pointing. The current system basically boils down to "should this person be temp banned?" If the answer feels like an obvious yes then the person gets the temp ban, otherwise they're free to keep going until they DO cross that line. This system encourages people being themselves but on the occasion someone goes too far they WILL be punished. Myself, GWG, Sansa, Dirty are all examples of that. I just don't think the punishment system is broken

Correct. Large forums are impersonal and boring. I generally go to one for a month or two to talk about some subject that's currently interesting me, and after I've got it out of my system I leave, never to return, cause I didn't really build any connections to people that made me want to stay. There's a reason I've been hear for four years.

To mock Trollheart.

Seriously? Yac, Pete, Jans, Goofle, Duga? Vanilla/Freebase have acted out a couple times but nothing worth stripping them of modship.

Our mods are dramafree, and fair.

What's wrong with a small forum? My couch is smaller than my neighbor's, and it has a few nasty springs jutting out of it, but it's comfy and I wouldn't trade it for a fancy and massive leather gargantuan.

Also, this whole argument is the same debate that happens when people try to enact morality laws. For example, "Cursing in public should be illegal." People claim that curse words exist purely to hurt people, and they do nothing to benefit discussions. In a way, they're right. It's a matter of opinion whether someone believes that people should have the right to say what they want (except for slander/libel, which is comparable to when people get too personal and the mods step in), or to give up some freedoms because it may associate them with "bad" people and behavior. You know where I stand on that issue, and this one, and I respectfully disagree with your stance.

By your logic, since this has been going on for awhile and the "great members" have apparently been leaving, then shouldn't the forum be more volatile than ever? If that's true, then why didn't the forum explode after Urban left? There was ammunition and a target, yet almost nobody even thought about taking aim. We reward altruism; just look at how many views Trollheart's massive array of threads get (I mean, his journal is one of the most viewed threads to ever be on Music Banter. There are only two threads in the Lounge, which you claim overshadows the other forums, that dwarf it in views, and both of them are much older). We reward talent; every time an established member writes a great song, everyone praises them and publicly reviews them to give them exposure.

The only reward a troublemaker gets is attention, but guess what? They'd get it even if your proposal went through. People would still act out; it's human nature. And if you really think that putting a filter down and expecting them to be stupid enough to just yell "**** everyone! Ban me!" then you're being idealistic. This is human nature, and it'll continue no matter what. At least with the current system, we have the benefit of the doubt, which we have shown time and again that we deserve.

The mods and users have already proven that they can keep the majority of the forum under control. We don't need a robocop. I might be willing to support your proposal if it only affects the Lounge (the one place that needs it), and I think that would be a good compromise.

That's exactly my point. The tower of MB basically lost it's very foundation, yet we didn't let the tower tumble down. When a piece breaks off, we fix it. When cracks appear, we keep them from spreading out, and we seal them. MB is a big, old, mossy tower that looks weird, but eventually you come to love it. Even if you think a big boring obelisk is more ordered and admirable, you shouldn't try to smooth away the very things that make MB such an interesting place. If you want more moderation, the answer is simple; stop punishing yourself by trying to make this place into something it isn't, and go to one of the many more moderated forums around the internet.

I actually think that The Lounge is healthy. People say what is on their minds, and express perfectly natural feelings (which includes anger). It doesn't affect the music forums, and the mods step in when asked to. It's a privilege to have a place where we can moderate ourselves, and it's one that we don't often abuse, and still deserve to have. Yet still, as I said before, I would agree to the new enforcement rules if they were put solely on The Lounge. I think that would be a reasonable solution, if people are dead set on changing things. And if things don't get better in a month, then start restricting every other forum. After that, if they still don't make things better, at that point we should think about removing the restrictions.

If you want to blame someone for Urban leaving, blame me. Don't pretend that he left as some grand statement about the way MB has been going; if that were the case, he would have said as much in his goodbye post. Not giving a motive would only cause people to search for someone to blame, which is exactly what happened, and it's the only possible reason he wouldn't give a reason (since him taking the time to critique MB would have helped people to understand and support his cause immensely). He wanted me to pay for making him angry, and he did, in a way. But he didn't get the uproar that he wanted, and expected.

If you think you're the reason Urban left you have a gigantic ego. No one knows what happened with him, and if they do, they haven't confirmed it one way or another. You might have been the straw which really doesn't say much.

You do not know this man at all. Like at all. I'd appreciate it if you refrain from judging him.

How do you know, if he never gave a reason? If he wanted to say that MB was going to hell, he'd have just said it. He wasn't a shy guy. You can't blame any of us for trying to understand it, and coming to conclusions.

Anyway, I told everyone to decide for themselves, and that's exactly what they did. The fact that everyone blamed me for it says as much about them as it does about me. The reason why I keep saying "I'm probably the reason why Urban left" is because that is the consensus, and because our issues and contact when he left involved more than just the Confessional Thread. I have a good reason to believe it, and everyone else does. It's not like I want everyone to think i'm Oriphiel: Slayer of Urbans. I stayed out of his goodbye thread specifically to keep that kind of thing from happening.

We were as much friends as we were enemies. It really bothered me when he left. I've tried very hard to keep this from becoming an issue, so please don't judge me without knowing my relationship with him. I'm sorry for putting words into your mouth, for what it's worth.

Urban's been complaining about how the site sucks as long as I've been here. He's one of those "In my day, we actually talked about music" kind of guys.

No you're not and you aren't friends with him at all. I know because we are friends. Like text overseas friends. Stop lying.

But he also kinda loved this place, especially the leniency, and he loved to play pranks and make jokes.

But enough with the Urban speculation. It's my fault for bringing it up. My point had nothing to do with Urban's motives; it had to do with how the community, even though they were very angry, acted very reasonably.

Believe what you want. Hate me, call me a liar, I don't really mind. I'm done putting thoughts into the mind of a guy who isn't around anymore, so feel free to do the same. He's gone, and i'm over it, whether he loved or hated me.

Yes, Urban leaving has probably been years in the making. I don't have anymore time today for a long response, so I'll wait, but I'll reply briefly.

Oriphiel, you see no problems where I see plenty. For example, you write that :

Well, wasn't it a volatile situation that just became the last straw for Urban? You mention how Trollheart is rewarded for his efforts. Isn't he also one of the most mocked members here? (I'm sorry TH, I wish it wasn't so, but that's how it seems to me.)

You suggest I find another forum. Earlier, I left MB because I didn't like the environment here and yes, I discuss music in other places on the internet. Recently, I thought I'd give MB another chance and see what things are like here. It's not much better than it was and so I'm doing another stab at trying to change things. If I can't and the current climate persists or worsens, I will choose to discuss music elsewhere, as will others. This is like a playground full of very loud kids. If you can stand loud kids, you can be here. If you are a loud kid, you will thrive. If you don't like loud kids, you will eventually get tired and will want to leave.

Fucking stop! I am disgusted by this, and I am floored that in the face of someone saying, hey we are really tight, and you aren't his friend, you still try and lie your way out of it.

Oh my god who cares?

Dude I dont like that ****.

You're arguing over whether or not Urban and Oriphiel were friends. This is quite possibly the most inane debate to have ever occurred on this forum.

And I can see why you'd feel that way. I'm a ham-handed asshole. I'm not trying to lie my way out of anything. I am almost certainly why Urban left, and that negates virtually any positive conversations that we may have had. I messed up.

Now, back to the debate...

Yes, but far less volatile than the kind of fighting that happened when Sansa and Dirty were around. Compared to, for example, Boo Boo banning everyone after a nasty fight, I'd say we've actually been acting very maturely lately. We're just as good as we've always been, and there has always been weird crap going on. I just really don't see the degradation that you're talking about.

Also, the main people who mock Trollheart are the ones that love him the most. They love to poke at him for being so welcoming/benign, and it's great to be on a forum where people can comfortably take digs at each other every now and then.

Yet you came back. You like this forum, and can't stay away from it, but you also want to take away what makes it different from other forums. But enough of all that...

I think we're both being idealistic here. Did you think about the compromise that I mentioned (where at first only The Lounge would be heavily moderated)? How do you feel about that?

Anyway to get back on topic, here are a few things I think the mods could be more proactive about addressing:

-Hurtful/aggressive name calling (edit or delete post with explanation)
-Intentional thread derailment in serious topics (remove all off topic posts, maybe put them in spam thread) ... it's okay when the conversation naturally flows into something else but if someone makes some off the wall comment that has nothing to do with what's currently being discussed and it ends up destroying the conversation, I think that's a problem.

These 2 things alone would go a long way in improving the forums without destroying the current vibe. It also requires quite a bit more mod activity to stay on top of these things.


and now you're arguing over their argument. and now I'm arguing with you over you arguing with them over their argument. When will the madness end?

I' m very loyal,like a pit bull. If it invovles people I care about,and if I see someone spewing patronizingbull**** on behalf of my friend and someone they dont know at all,Imma speak up. And I'd do it every time.

Quiet. I'm trying to shame them.

As of 12:06 pm EST. It has been confirmed Urban is gone from the site.Orphiel IS NOT THE REASON.
He sends regards from Tibetan hippie commune.

He won't even consider coming back in like a year?

Damn he must have seriously reached his breaking point big time

I guess I should feel happy about this, but honestly...

https://i.imgur.com/t8IHPh.jpg

Depends on how his stamp collecting goes.

Ill ask him Yd but hes beeing really tight lipped and Im not pushing.Im only saying what is appropriate,and not a breech of our friendship. Sorry guys.

Well there are certainly people that want him back and I'm sure he knows that, but I think we can all respect his decision so we just gotta move on.

Or he's just being super dramatic and craves the attention that people have been giving him. Good riddance as far as i'm concerned.

Didn't you do the EXACT same thing a few weeks ago? Are you just upset that you didn't get nearly as much attention when you stormed out in a huff?

I guess I shouldve put in [joke] tags. I like Urban. And for the record, no. I said one thing in the chat box.

I'm not happy he's gone or anything, but I don't know if I've ever seen someone make such a spectacle of their leaving the site.