The whole situation just goes to show that as unpopular as imperialism is, when you withdraw the influence of the global empire in particular sphere of influence or region, often they will just be at the mercy of whatever regional power they fall under, rather than being autonomous.

We thought when Britain gave up Hong Kong as a colony that was paving the way for their independent future. China has other ideas, and it's their sphere of influence.

Same with what happened after the cold war died down, we got distracted and bogged down by middle eastern wars. Russia decided to go ahead and invade Georgia and then later annex Crimea.

It's tempting to think if we just stopped all this evil empire **** the world would be a better place. Yet we're only one player in a league of aspiring empires. Having the top player withdraw doesn't stop the game.

And yet that still doesn't make us good guys. It just makes everyone garbage.

I got Group Home on ignore but how do you figure China as the imperialist?

There are no good guys. Everyone is acting on self interest.

Yea, now.

Previously it was Britain. That was my point.

Yeah cause we're trash.

American slavery's all good because compared to other countries, we're the most humane slave owners in the game and do you want your slaves to fall into the hands of a bad slave owner? I didn't think so.

Nice strawman. ;)

Btw I'm not saying we should intervene in Hong Kong. That would be a disaster. Just that there's more than one evil empire to worry about.

It's a false analogy, actually.

My point was that the game will continue with or without us. The moral imperative to end the evil empire loses its edge. The humanitarian angle diminishes as it becomes clear that whether we act or don't act, catastrophe can occur. Only the times we don't act we don't get the direct blame for it so there's that. But all that's really left in the end is naked self interest.

IIRC they don't have actual sovereignty.

Just a different economic system and different rights. It was honestly a stupid thing to think you could give Hong Kong to a country like China and expect them not to eventually bring them under their authoritarian heel.

So let me guess. There’s a stupid debate about what imperialism is going on.

Lol. He puts me on ignore and then asks for clues as to what I'm talking about.

Come on, OH. Let's be men about this. I have no fundamental beef with you, we just disagree on some stuff.

I agree but sovereignty is kinda a specific term IMO so I wasn't sure if you were aware they're technically part of China.

Nah, to me it depends on what is at stake.

In this case we stand more to lose than to gain. But there are cases where it would be worthwhile.

E.g. if we would've dealt with the Nazis sooner than we did.

In general though it's usually better for us not to send troops.

Well it has one thing in common: self interest. If you see a real threat emerging then it's in your self interest to kill it in the crib.

If you're talking about invading a country like Iraq for their oil I think it's quite evident that wasn't actually in our best interest.

I agree with that.

SnowcultFlake

on second thought I was being overly cynical

^ I agree with you jwb, about the sad realities of the post-colonial, post-cold-war world, although it's not always about one evil empire being swapped for another evil empire.

There are so many disappointing examples of what happens when an "evil empire" withdraws: in many African countries, and in Yugoslavia, the newly independent countries were quite capable of generating their very own hell without some replacement empire to help them along. Historically, the dream of a golden era of equality and independence has all too often degenerated into repressive national leaders or civil war. That whole bitter Balkan war that crippled places like Bosnia and Serbia had been held in check for decades by Russia. And from Rwanda to the Congo to Zimbabwe, the last 40 years or so have been marked by endemic bloodshed and corruption.

To me what's strange about Hong Kong is the notion right at the starting point, that Britain could have "leased" HK from the Chinese: in it's way, as bizarre a notion as Trump "buying" Greenland. And now the blameless citizens of HK are suffering the consequences of that arrogant Sino-Brit arrangement. Not to make light of their dilemma, but the poor HK protesters must be secretly thinking, "If only we were still a British colony we wouldn't be in this mess." And in that respect they are no different from Americans, who are probably thinking the exact same thing as they cry themselves to sleep every night under the Trump presidency. :D

"We May Have to Shoot Down This Aircraft"

oh no they lied to us

Is there any reason to read that if I'm not a boomer obsessed with America as a safety blanket?

I mean you're not going to learn anything new

It never once occurred to me that Hong Kong was going to be independent. Sometimes when I’m reading here I think certain people don’t know Hong Kong from Taipei or even Singapore.

Lol, no you didn't.

I remember telling you point blank that Hong Kong would side with the west before ever accepting the extradition mandate. You laughed it off, as if China would never let it happen. Now look wha happun.

Dear China,

Please carpet bomb Hong Kong.

Sincerely,
Your newest fan

lol

It's pretty common for guerrillas and rebels resisting their own government to appeal to the US for help. Especially since we are already increasingly hostile to China. I don't think anyone is really surprised here.

Except that we started discussing this before they were even considered "guerrillas" or "rebels". They were just protesters throwing water bottles at cops. Most people thought the protests weren't gonna go anywhere. They were wrong. Now let me rub it in already, hou mh hou aa?

I wasn't criticizing you, I agree with you.

I just think the idea that them asking for help from America makes them bad is foolish. Syrian rebels asked America for help. Lybian rebels. Kurds and Shia Iraqis fighting isis. Etc.

But I do think unfortunately us stepping in and helping them would be far too risky of escalating the conflict with China. So they're basically doomed.

But just look at that! *gag*

https://i.ibb.co/JkhN7Lr/hong-kong-trump-558.jpg

They're appealing to his ego. Very smart tbh.

You also have to keep in mind what they're resisting. We're over here worried about Trump who is treating migrants inhumanely.

They're resisting being at risk if extradition to China, who literally sends people to slave camps for the slightest thought crime and executes people at will

Trump'd do that if he could.

He probably wants to bring in more Asian people to do math.

But he can't. China can and does.

Tbh, we should just trade Puerto Rico to China in exchange for Hong Kong. I mean, really, it's not like we're doing anything with it.

:laughing:

That's not exactly a fair trade. We'd have to throw in Hawaii or Florida.