Hey, speaking of The Lancet, have any of you people seen the new drug classification proposal based on level of danger that was published in it a few years back? Here's a chart from it:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...graph2_416.gif

Notice where alcohol is relative to cannabis, LSD, ecstasy, etc.

Here's the BBC article about it.

What is Khat?


also, I don't understand how benzo's aren't higher than heroin. You can't die from opiate withdrawal

khat is basically speed

a plant that is chewed and has the same effects of caffeine and or cocaine

is it the same thing as betel nuts?

LSD not as harmful as weed?

Sure that chart is legit??

i had to read about the nut...no Khat is much more powerful....think of it more like coke (but less euphoric) or eating handful of no-doze....the thing about khat is that it is an alkaline and really causes almost no physical damage....but obviously any type of 'speed' will eventually cause mental issues

LSD is NOT as harmful as weed....at least when its pure

Yes, I'm sure the chart is legit.

Of course it should be legalized....it's fun..and awesome...and if it's not I have to go the next 3 years without it which is gay ****..

what are your reasons on why it should be legalised other than it's "fun" and "awesome"? Is that a reasonable argument?

It's Awesome? This would not hold up in an argument for it to be legalized. And why do you have to go the next three years without it, legal or illegal you can get it no matter what.

I think "it's awesome" is definitely the best reason for why it should be legalized.

Legalize pot or ban alcohol, either is fine with me.

it's crap like this that makes me ashamed to own up to puffing. same as 4/20 'celebrations'. we get it, you like it, it makes you 'rebellious' and 'anti-authority', totally sticking it to 'the man'... and not at all a self-medicated sheep like all the other 'rebellious' stoners out there.

personally i think it should be decriminalized on the same level as alcohol, it's still a controlled substance, and you'd still need to adhere to controls over its use and sale. not because it's fun or awesome, but because i really honestly think the government stands to profit far more from taxing the sale and cultivation of cannabis than it's continued and failed efforts to control it.

on top of the economical benefits of decriminalization it would also help reverse the stigma on hemp, which could be a VERY viable crop. i mean really, the fibers make more durable clothes than cotton, and the oil can be used in diesel engines. you could GROW FUEL. but the stigma persists, it's related to the devil weed and therefore is the devil weed. :yikes:

there's also the tangible medical benefit. i have a friend with Crohn's disease, eating is not always a pleasant experience, especially not when he's getting a flare up, having a puff helps establish a bit of an appetite and negates some of the pain and discomfort.

the biggest hurdle right now is the misguided belief that it's a 'gateway' drug. BULLSH!T!!!, alcohol and tobacco are the gateway drugs of choice in the industrialized western world. that, and the fact that most police departments stand to lose a pile of funding in the, again, failed, 'war' on drugs. by keeping it illegal they're keeping the bigger profits from weed in the pockets of gangsters and hard drug dealers and dudes like Bill and Ted are screwed for life for getting pinched with a J and having their permanent records tainted.... all because of something i'm sure the majority of lawmakers on this continent refuse to acknowledge enjoying at some point in their youth.

Pot is a gateway drug. Alcohol is a dead end drug.

I've been seeing this chart for awhile, and while I agree with most of the data on it I prefer this chart:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...endence%29.svg

The first one makes it seem like cannabis is more harmful than GHB, anabolic steroids, and solvents, which isn't the case at all. This one differentiates between the dependence and body load factors, and although it still places marijuana a bit high on the dependence scale for my liking it provides a more realistic depiction of drug harm reduction data.

Honestly, all those who glamorize marijuana use as "natural", "safe", and "spiritual" are morons. Any serious psychonaut knowingly and willingly accepts the fact that all drugs are toxic, and their effects are basically mild-to-severe forms of poisoning. There's nothing spiritual about inhaling the carcinogen-laden smoke of a dried plant, it's just another way mankind has found to alter consciousness in an effort to avoid the monotony of daily life.

Well if we're gonna debate about it. It should be legalized because it for the most part is harmless. The US has wasted so much time, money and correctional facility space since the 'war on drugs' began. Not to mention 1000's of LEO's have been killed just to stop people from buying/selling/carrying it.

And because I'm enlisted.

The things is... I'm going to smoke regardless. So are other smokers. it isn't tough to find weed. But instead of money going to a dealer it could go to the government.

So on one hand i am a little surprised there havent been faster steps towards legalizing.

It's as spiritual as you make it. Anything can be spiritual if you approach it as such.

You kidding? You think that the number of potheads in our soceity won't increase once (if) it becomes legalized? That's what your argument boils down to.

Yawn. Everyone sees the fallacies of it being illegal. Most everyone agrees it should be legalized. New topic please.

I totally am with you on this. I'm sick of people repeating the same thing.

me too! Legalization is a step in the right direction! but who knows how long it will take if cali gets it legalized. its being voted on november 2nd. But it would take like 5 years to spread throughout the whole us...

The only thing I am against when it comes to legaliizing Marijuana, is screwing over the people who actually need it for medicinal purpose. If I am not mistaken, if California does pass Prop 19, there will then be the decision of individual counties legalizing it. So if it passes, but the county doesn't pass, wouldn't that screw over the people who need it. Correct me if i'm wrong, anyone know what the real situation is?

I just read an article from a norwegian sociology professor a couple of days ago who claims most academics don't realize the full extent of what it is that makes cannabis dangerous. He says there's more to it than cannabis' effect on biology and that the associated cannabis culture can also be harmful to society. In Norway, cannabis smokers largely make up a subculture. You may think subcultures are prone to change, but appearantly the "cannabis culture" has been quite similar since the 60s. People (in Norway) who smoke often adopt part of that culture into their own identity and he argues that it's the culture which is bad because the values that it holds dear are counterproductive to society and could turn people into takers rather than givers.

This is more relevant to a leftist country like Norway than it is to the US as takers are more taxing to the givers here, but I thought it might be an interesting point. Although it's a very general comment about a subculture in a small country, maybe someone could recognize if the concern has validity elsewhere.

Source (norwegian) : http://www.uio.no/forskning/aktuelt/.../cannabis.html

That's a good point, I feel, about the drug culture encouraging people to be takers rather than givers in a society. The U.S. certainly has a LOT of complaints from people as it is about those who exploit the welfare system to get something while doing nothing. It is a type of stealing, and I assume much less common than people here claim. But it certainly happens.

So, that's an interesting perspective in the article, which I *tried* to read. I'd say drugs epitomize taking rather than giving. When you use drugs like marijuana, you take your mind away from yourself, you take yourself away from others, and you incapacitate yourself so that you can't function as well.

But mostly, all I can think of right now, seeing as you're back, is...

TORE TORE TORE TORE TORE TORE TORE TORE TORE TORE TORE! :) :) :)

Canabis should be legalized to decrease crime.
Although if it was legalized thousands of dealers/growers would be welcomed to poverty. Also the government would put such a high tax on it that crime would be even worse than when it was legal. I say legalize it for medical purposes and leave it at that.

The subculture is that way because it feels alienated from the mainstream culture. When you're seen as an outsider and a bum for using drugs it kills your desire to contribute somewhat.

Ugh...I wasn't going to respond to this thread but I had to say something. Drugs have nothing to do with giving and taking. I do agree with the subculture bit, but as CA put it, feeling like an outsider breeds resentment towards the main culture. That particular subculture may be more about taking from their society as a whole, but I promise you they are all about giving within the subculture itself.

Marijuana is what you make it. I am in a band, work 40 hours a week, am about to start school again to earn my PhD, and try to participate in any philanthropies that pique my interest. I do all this and I smoke all the damn time. If anything, it has helped many of the issues I used to have. However, it is completely possible to be a lazy bum pothead type of person. I've met those, too. Then again, I have met plenty of lazy bum types who don't smoke at all. It's all about the type of person you are.

I promise you, tore, if you started smoking one day you wouldn't up and quit work and start living under a bridge. Chances are, you will continue with your life just as you always have.

cliche, yet classic:

The dealers and growers would be welcomed to poverty? Who exactly is going to be growing all the pot when the demand goes up 1000 fold? These people would be given a chance at a legitimate career. If Marijuana is legalized, then we will need weed farmers, mabye even people with experience in it's sales. So I don't understand your logic here. The government will definately put a tax on it, but it will be minute compared to the street tax you're already paying. An ounce of grass costs between $4-10 depending on quality to make. You end up paying anywhere from $100-400 (again, depending on quality). The government would maybe tax it 10-20%, but nothing as outrageous as the street prices we are used to paying.

My opinion is just based on my experience with the people I've known who smoked pot...so you may be right that how people integrate it into their lives and are affected by it depends on the person. I just haven't ever seen any positives come from people using pot for non-medical reasons, other than their pleasure at the moment.

I generally feel drugs should be legalized so they become dirt cheap, as long as there is a massive public education program to teach people why not to use them. My main reason for legalization is the elimination of the lucrative and illegal drug trade that leads to so many people being killed.

My dad suggests that drugs should be sold in grocery stores in the rat poison aisle, to try to get people to think twice.

Two good points.
But Cigarattes should be in the rat poison aisle.
Marijuana should be in the Medicine aisle.

I agree with you completely about eliminating the drug trade. Our war on drugs is only fueling the trade more, making for a more expensive war on drugs and so on.

I also agree with you on public education. This is a MUST. However, I have to say you are in the minority as far as people who do not like to do things for "pleasure in the moment". I only need to point to the alcohol industry to show you that people like diversions and to lose sense of their normal selves. You are a rare person indeed to go through life content with the way your mind is right now. Speaking only for myself (though I'm sure most will agree), I need to stop thinking sometimes. I have a million things going on and pot puts me back in the moment and I can gain some perspective. I will choose it over alcohol any day (which I think is the better choice).

Value your mind of steel, Vegangelica. My mom is the same way. I don't know how you guys do it, personally. Maybe that is weak of me, but it is what it is.

What's wrong with a product's only benefit being pleasure?

Heh heh...mind of steel! :laughing: I wish, duga!

I value how my mind normally works, even if it isn't always a pleasure ride. But it's real, and I like that, even if sobbing in a corner occasionally is part of the package, or feeling overwhelmed, or feeling despair.

I guess I just never expected life to feel consistently happy and content--well, at least not since I was a child--so I'm okay with feeling psychologically uncomfortable sometimes. As long as I have food and shelter, I can reason myself out of most self-inflicted woes. Or at least have sympathy for my brain's functions, since I know that my mind = my brain and I'm kind of along for the ride plus I AM the ride, if you know what I mean.

And I do have numerous non-drug coping methods to escape situations or just give me a break from them, or create psychological pleasure for myself. I am typing on MusicBanter, for example! :D Generally the more I type, the more troubled I'm feeling about something!

This may be why my posts are so long. ;)

California votes for it in november.

The pot growers here are against it. They look at it as the governement taking the monoploy on it.

Regular end users like it, because its no longer illegal and you can get it with your T-Shirt at the show. Transport will still be illegal in some ways, and it will be difficult to get a license- read, the governement will control who gets a license. So the many indy growers here will actually be left out.

(I live in Humboldt County CA)

Absolutly nothing. Cigarettes, sex toys, even alcohol, they are all legal, why not pot?

I think you have to think of it more in terms of young people growing up in a world with legalized pot rather than apply it to me. Would it turn more people into underachievers or work as a gateway drug? But I think you're right that legalization would change the subculture. I think some people like the excitement or rebelness associated with pot here today, but getting one's pot from the apothecary would remove the glory completely. You wouldn't be a rebel, just a dope smoker.

In the US, I guess an obvious bonus from legalization on society is that you have a lot of cannabis-related crime which taxes society. Are there any less political reasons on how pot could add something positive to society?

Why does something have to add something positive to society in order to be legal?

I wouldn't say something has to add positively to society for it to be accepted, but if you want to create a good society where people are happy, it should be the general train of thought. If you live completely detached from society, you can do whatever you want and your business is noone elses. But the basis for society is about people coming together and giving up some of their freedoms for the common good, net negative freedoms like the freedom to abuse and kill people.

Besides, when I ask if it can add positively to society, I am genuinely interested in the answer. I believe there are more positives. It's not like I'm just asking for something to argue against. ;)

I think the way to discuss stuff like this is to try and remove yourself from your own selfish interests and look at the bigger picture. That made me go from no to a maybe and now I don't have a clear idea on whether it would be a net good or bad thing to legalize. I'm interested in reading any argument if it's a good one.