I thought this was indisputable at this point? I haven't seen anyone disprove that. And for you folks who think it isn't fair that the wealthy get larger tax cuts, put yourself in their shoes. And don't tell me you'd be some saint who would gladly give your money to the government to spend how they choose. Everyone should be taxed the same. Why should you be penalized for being successful? Is that a crime? Let it be noted that I make $52,000 a year and I oppose higher taxes on ANYONE, even if I am to benefit because of it.

You don't know what socialism is do you? Saying you see none of the fruits of your labor is absurd. You see all the fruits of your labor and then some. Socialism isn't health care and arguing that capitalism makes a country stronger is historically stupid (see Africa, Latin America, etc.) especially now when it's the socialist countries (Norway, Sweden, etc.) that are doing well as opposed to those great free market ones that are borrowing all their money and who think economic growth is people considering buying.

No one really disputed it. However he's ignoring the larger picture when he says that and that alone. See: my above post.

which fruits of that labor? tell me how you receive more benefit by working harder in a socialistic society as opposed to a capitalistic. also, I would appreciate you not calling something I said stupid. Thank you. I didn't say capitalism makes A country stronger, it makes and has made our country stronger. also, please explain to me how much Norway, Sweden, etc have contributed to the technological, medical, whatever else advancement?

Also, please help me understand how an individual will work harder and start their own businesses, etc, when the more they work, the more it helps others. Shouldn't I be able to be successful and make my own choices who I want to give my money to?

What larger picture is there? I think it's that simple. It's easy for us middle class people to say they rich have it easy and get all these tax breaks, etc, when we are the one who would benefit from it. Is that a false premise? I really doubt if you were wealthy that you would be in favor of paying more tax than anyone else. Seriously?

anyways, this is fun. I'm not trying to be argumentative :) and I'm bored at work. so ok.

I called what you said stupid because it was. Saying capitalism has been great for the world is just...stupid. I could've used a nicer word - sorry but countries are mired in poverty because of it and their resources have been stolen. Slavery, sweat shops, dumping toxic waste, all these have been the products of capitalism. You can't really deny that. Fidel Castro once said "they talk about the failure of socialism but where is the success of capitalism in Africa, Asia and Latin America?" Well where is it?

Also, in regards to Sweden, Norway and so on not being at the forefront of technological innovations. It's a pretty ignorant thing to say. Global Conexions In regards to Norway, there's polar research and off-shore oil drilling and so on. I also learned from toretorden that they invented the cheese slicer! But how can that be in a socialist society!? Education leads to innovation; not the free market that's why.

In regards to the last paragraph. Before you say you should have the right to decide what you should do with your own property why is it your property? What makes it yours really? How can claim ownership over something and how doesn't that interfere with the rest of societies liberties?

Um...again. Read my post. I don't think you did or if you did you chose to ignore it.

this is pointless. we are fundamentally different in our beliefs. I'm okay to leave it at that. Call it conceding if you like, but I'm quite happy living in the USA. Not many people quote Castro; well done.

You stated the middle class was shifted the burden. How when they pay less that 10% of the taxes are they shifted the burden? Of course if you use straight dollar amounts the percentages of any tax cut will favor those who pay more taxes. Your grasp on the economics behind this don't appear to be very strong.

I never said they were shifted the entire burden. I just said they were shifted too much of the burden and considering what happened to the middle class (it shrunk) and then what happened to the even lower classes (they grew) I don't see how that's an objectionable statement. Particularly when the tax cuts favored the rich which is an indisputable as a fact. I don't really know how you can argue it. The Congressional Budget Office agrees with me on this.

What if it gets to the point where the rich just get fed up with the taxes they are paying, and decide to retire, and just live off of what they have. Who will shoulder the tax burden?

asdisadllttt. stop.