Son of JayJamJah

No, you too can own property and even his if you having something he views as equal value to the property you wish to acquire. I can say for a fact, I'd never have worked as hard as I did throughout my life without the incentive of owning property and goods to make my families life easier.

RE: Marxism\Socialism

I appreciate but do not share your perspective, I agree with Inuzuka Sksword in his assessment of the capitalism as leaving the most available for individual subjective pursuit of happiness. You and I both have the choice to own property or not, drive a vehicle or not, save or spend money, invest or hoard.

The basis of my philosophy is simple too. The more options you allow to a collective society the more people you will satisfy.

The more people that are satisfied the more that are working productivity and too their potential, the more of those you get the better society you have.

There are flaws surely but I can't imagine anyone could be unselfishly opposed to a system alloting the most options for the most people.

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mr dave

this is relative to the individual and how they want to handle their money and their perception of happiness.

the idea that we live in a society with 'slave wages' seems to be perpetuated by whiny kids (regardless of physical age) who want to measure their worth against their neighbors rather than against themselves and who generally act like they're entitled to an active social life as a basic human right. (yes, this is a huge generalization)

just because someone works a job doesn't mean they're entitled to a house in the burbs with a nice car in the driveway. they need to step up in their work for it, and if they can't manage to keep an apartment running then how the hell do they honestly expect to be able to keep a house running?

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sleepy jack

That's not really what I was getting at all. I didn't even say the United States was a society with slave wages. It's not and that's because of wage laws but total free marketeers (see Inuzuka Skysword) think government regulation like that is immoral and wrong. I just don't understand how they can look at sweat shops and the like and think that's a product of morality.

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Son of JayJamJah

Coming from a life that saw an 11 year old me sleeping in an 8x8 room with two siblings while My Parents and Aunt and Uncle shared a "master" bedroom to today where I have three times as many bedrooms as occupants in my house, nothing rubs me the wrong way more then entitlement.

Sweet Shops are a product of supply and demand mixed with a twinge of greed and desperation and are horrible realities. The problem with government regulation is that the track record of the last fifty years is obscenely corrupt.

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sleepy jack

Yess because all my arguments have come from me being a whiny kid from the suburbs with a sense of entitlement.

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Son of JayJamJah

I certainly didn't mean to imply that at all (if it's directed at me.)

I was agreeing with Dave's sentiment that entitlement is hard to stomach.

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sleepy jack

All that operates under the assumption that I have the means to own property. In a capitalist society there's always going to be an oppressed under class who can't own property and don't have the means to "pursue happiness" which is subjective; even though you guys seem to be arguing it's objective and requires the right to own wealth and property (but somehow socialism is the materialistic philosophy?)

The problem is capitalism doesn't allow the most options for most people. It provides a state of welfare for the elite and the lower classes are stuck in a society where they have to play by the rules of said elite. Capitalism requires for the institutions of society to be under the control of the few, the ones with the most wealth. Capitalism is inherently fascist.

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Son of JayJamJah

I've never accused socialism as being materialistic, I said it's impractical and unfair.

There is no one in a capitalist society that can not advance in class, this is a FACT I will swear by. Doubting me is scoffing at years and years of first hand eye witness evidence. Explain how I went from nothing to where I am today if capitalism and democracy are inherently fascist.

To someone in my position you're argument sounds like sour grapes. You seem unwilling to give the system a try and stay resigned to your presumption of an unlevel playing field to great to overcome.

Wealthy people in America became wealthy because of their families hard work and sacrifice in the vast majority of cases. Those families made those sacrifices to ensure their children and children's children would have that advantage.

No one is holding you down or holding you back.

Here's how I know I'm right: I know hundreds of people who have left their home country to come to America, I know two (off the top of my head) who left America for greener pastures.

This might start going in circles Ethan, I respectfully disagree with a lot of your assertions and hope you find their error in your thinking as you get older. Not so that I am wrong, but so that you may have a life as blessed as mine.

Wayfarer don't bother, I won't read it anyway, you've been far to rude arrogant and in my opinion ignorant lately for me to bother with you anymore.

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If you're posting in the music forums make sure to be thoughtful and expressive, if you're posting in the lounge ask yourself "is this something that adds to the conversation?" It's important to remember that a lot of people use each thread. You're probably not as funny or clever as you think, I know I'm not.

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cardboard adolescent

i don't think there's any way to get rid of the inequality in capitalism, that's just basic dialectics. everything seems to tend toward fascism, so the best system is the one that best denies its own fulfillment.

the big problem with capitalism, though, is that there isn't any force that can check the development and expansion of the system. in fact, the only way to keep it going is to make it bigger and bigger as it becomes more efficient. this is incredibly wasteful and self-destructive. the system has to invent goals as it runs out of concrete ones. it pulls us deeper and deeper into a self-destructive nightmare.

i think the only system that makes sense is an enlightened dictator. of course, anyone who's enlightened would never accept the position :P

Inuzuka Skysword

What I mean is that we are responsible for out own choices and such. We are ultimately responsible for creating our character and achieving what we achieve. Our life is what we are worth.

Socialism does not believe this. I mean socialism as in the absence of private property. Socialism teaches that we all are determined by one another.

The truth is, that generally speaking the Determinism vs. Free Will argument doesn't necessarily have an answer. What do you choose to believe though? Would you choose the idea that gives you self-esteem and worth? Would you choose the idea where no one is responsible for who they are. Determinism is not a healthy belief.

What does it mean to own? This is what I mean by socialism being driven by materialism. You see happiness in the property itself. You see it in what I have. If I have something that you want, you would see me having it and not letting you have it as an infringement on your happiness.

It is not the property that brings happiness. It is the pursuit itself. It is the work that it takes to achieve it. It is found in the passion and drive to succeed.

People in the "lower class" can still earn, work, and put passion into there work. How do you think people were able to live in such a place as a concentration camp? They found something meaningful to do. They found a meaningful task. Viktor Frankl studied the people in the camp.

Now by no means am I saying that the concentration camp was a good place. People were brutally murdered and such. However, people aren't brutally murdered in capitalism if the law is enforced. If the right to life is protected, one can find happiness whether poor or rich. As long as he may see the fruit of his work afterward, the work itself is where one finds his happiness.

If you refer to a sweat shop as people working against there will then I am completely against that. If someone agrees to work then the responsibility for that choice is forever found in them. Also, you cannot blame the amount of sweatshops today on the free market. The price for work in some places is artificially high, which necessitates that in some places it will be artificially low.