Finite and Infinite Games

cardboard adolescent · 08-01-2009, 06:56 PM

"The rules of the finite game may not change; the rules of an infinite game must change.
Finite players play within boundaries; infinite players play with boundaries.
Finite players are serious; infinite games are playful.
A finite player plays to be powerful; an infinite player plays with strength.
A finite player consumes time; an infinite player generates time.
The finite player aims for eternal life; the infinite player aims for eternal birth.
The choice is yours."

In Finite and Infinite Games, James P. Carse essentially analyzes all human activity in terms of finite and infinite games; finite games, such as tennis, politics or working for a large company, are defined by a beginning and end, a winner and loser. We play them to gain power, titles, to gain a role in society which others cannot question or reject. We play them to end them. Infinite games, on the other hand, are played for the purpose of play, they have no 'end' but the desire to keep other players in the game, to prolong the play. Rather than operating within boundaries which give their players identities, they play with boundaries, they play with the rules themselves. Examples here include art and philosophy, and possibly sexuality, though sexuality has a finite and infinite version. Sexuality as a finite game means 'winning' your sexual partner, owning them and being able to parade them around as a status symbol. Infinite sexuality is something much deeper, which allows people to find, explore and transform themselves and others. The way in which he develops these themes is really brilliant and hard to capture in a short synopsis, but I basically think this book should be required reading for everyone. It's very insightful and profound and incredibly readable and easy to understand, even when he quotes Hegel, Nietzsche, Freud, Jesus, Rousseau, etc...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_infinite_games

Seltzer · 08-01-2009, 10:35 PM

This sounds like a fascinating way to examine life... I'm gonna have to read this sometime.

Astronomer · 08-01-2009, 11:08 PM

This is really interesting. Although I'm a tad put-off by the fact that he quotes Nietzsche and Freud. Don't know if he'd be citing them or critiquing them but both Nietzsche and Freud I cannot stand.

But I'm going to check this out, sounds fascinating.

It also makes me sad that although things like art, philosophy and music should be played as infinite games, in modern society and popular culture they are often 'finite.' Expressed as a means to gain fame, power and money instead of personal growth and experimentation. Great find though, can't wait to read it sometime.

cardboard adolescent · 08-01-2009, 11:55 PM

he only really quotes them to support what he's saying, to give his work a sense of reference. he doesn't really deal with their ideas directly, so none of their woman-hating shows up. it's a very sober work, i have a hard time seeing how anyone could be offended by it. as opposed to nietzsche, who is consciously trying to offend people.

Terrible Lizard · 08-02-2009, 01:01 AM

I'm going to b&n tomorrow anyway, might as well pick this up.

SATCHMO · 08-02-2009, 01:13 AM

Yeah, I'm already quite excited to read this. Seems similar to Power vs. Force by David R. Hawkins

Inuzuka Skysword · 08-02-2009, 10:56 AM

Not only am I excited to read it, but I can get a copy of it for 2 dollars on amazon.

Inuzuka Skysword · 10-02-2009, 03:07 PM

I bought this and read it. I liked some parts, but some parts I felt that he pulled some things out of his ass that had no connection to what he was saying before. Of course, I expected the skepticism he brought to the table since it is pretty much a staple of the philosophy that comes out nowadays.

Quote:

he only really quotes them to support what he's saying, to give his work a sense of reference. he doesn't really deal with their ideas directly, so none of their woman-hating shows up. it's a very sober work, i have a hard time seeing how anyone could be offended by it. as opposed to nietzsche, who is consciously trying to offend people.

I think one could be offended by the fact that he is relentlessly trying to convert people to becoming infinite players. I think that viewing life as an infinite player is the best way to view it. However, it is the finite games that make up the infinite game. We all love to play finite games and play them as finite players knowing that we are actually infinite players.

I think saying selfishness is a finite player's attribute is completely wrong. The selfishness that is more driven by "I want to be better than you" would be very finite, but I don't see how "I want to be the best that I can be" is finite. If you view "the best you can be" as a horizon instead of a set goal then I would think that would be the desired characteristic of an infinite player.

Overall, the book gave me some good things to think about. I really don't think it should be "required reading."

boo boo · 10-02-2009, 04:52 PM

Hey if life is a game then where is the reset button?

08-01-2009, 06:56 PM	#1 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	Finite and Infinite Games "The rules of the finite game may not change; the rules of an infinite game must change. Finite players play within boundaries; infinite players play with boundaries. Finite players are serious; infinite games are playful. A finite player plays to be powerful; an infinite player plays with strength. A finite player consumes time; an infinite player generates time. The finite player aims for eternal life; the infinite player aims for eternal birth. The choice is yours." In Finite and Infinite Games, James P. Carse essentially analyzes all human activity in terms of finite and infinite games; finite games, such as tennis, politics or working for a large company, are defined by a beginning and end, a winner and loser. We play them to gain power, titles, to gain a role in society which others cannot question or reject. We play them to end them. Infinite games, on the other hand, are played for the purpose of play, they have no 'end' but the desire to keep other players in the game, to prolong the play. Rather than operating within boundaries which give their players identities, they play with boundaries, they play with the rules themselves. Examples here include art and philosophy, and possibly sexuality, though sexuality has a finite and infinite version. Sexuality as a finite game means 'winning' your sexual partner, owning them and being able to parade them around as a status symbol. Infinite sexuality is something much deeper, which allows people to find, explore and transform themselves and others. The way in which he develops these themes is really brilliant and hard to capture in a short synopsis, but I basically think this book should be required reading for everyone. It's very insightful and profound and incredibly readable and easy to understand, even when he quotes Hegel, Nietzsche, Freud, Jesus, Rousseau, etc... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_infinite_games

08-01-2009, 10:35 PM	#2 (permalink)
Seltzer Fish in the percolator! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Hobbit Land NZ Posts: 2,870	This sounds like a fascinating way to examine life... I'm gonna have to read this sometime. __________________ In the Court of King Crimson \| Last.fm \| RYM

08-01-2009, 11:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
Astronomer we are stardust Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 2,894	This is really interesting. Although I'm a tad put-off by the fact that he quotes Nietzsche and Freud. Don't know if he'd be citing them or critiquing them but both Nietzsche and Freud I cannot stand. But I'm going to check this out, sounds fascinating. It also makes me sad that although things like art, philosophy and music should be played as infinite games, in modern society and popular culture they are often 'finite.' Expressed as a means to gain fame, power and money instead of personal growth and experimentation. Great find though, can't wait to read it sometime. __________________ Last edited by Astronomer; 08-02-2009 at 04:13 AM. Reason: bad spelling :)

08-02-2009, 01:01 AM	#5 (permalink)
Terrible Lizard **ER OF HOLES Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Butt**, Nebraska Posts: 1,211	I'm going to b&n tomorrow anyway, might as well pick this up. __________________ “YOU ARE SCUM SLUT.” -John Martyn

08-01-2009, 11:55 PM	#4 (permalink)
cardboard adolescent ;) Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: CA Posts: 3,503	he only really quotes them to support what he's saying, to give his work a sense of reference. he doesn't really deal with their ideas directly, so none of their woman-hating shows up. it's a very sober work, i have a hard time seeing how anyone could be offended by it. as opposed to nietzsche, who is consciously trying to offend people.

08-02-2009, 01:13 AM	#6 (permalink)
SATCHMO Al Dente Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 4,708	Yeah, I'm already quite excited to read this. Seems similar to Power vs. Force by David R. Hawkins

08-02-2009, 10:56 AM	#7 (permalink)
Inuzuka Skysword Existential Egoist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,468	Not only am I excited to read it, but I can get a copy of it for 2 dollars on amazon.