Ah nah no worries. The Testament dispute/ 4 books thing is not something I'd expect most people to know about Islam. I didn't even know it till a few years back when I started getting interested and looking into my own religion a bit more.

I wouldn't have guessed that it's not your first language, you write it pretty damn well.

Yeah, I'm only really familar with the most basic aspects of Islam and even then my knowledge is patchy.

Also, quick question: I was always taught that music was banned in Islam? With the exception of singing, I've always been taught that any form of music is haraam or forbidden under Islam. yet I've also come across various orchestras and music groups in Islamic countries (the Palestinian Children's Orchestra is one that comes to mind).

And yeah, I was raised until the age of 5 or so speaking French. But cheers!

Methinks I'm gonna read the Qur'an again...

I don't think so. I'm from Turkey, there's a very rich musical culture there. Like 1000 years worth of folk songs, and it's been an Islamic culture as long as that.

Hell, the guitar was invented by Muslims.

I think it has something more to do with the topic of the music. Because I know it's not what you mean but the prayer call and the reading of the Qu'ran itself in Arabic is arguably music.

Only an extremist hardliner would say music is wrong or "Haram" altogether; the general rule I'm aware of is openly singing about sexual things or encouraging drug use etc. promoting anything which goes against the 5 pillars etc. is widely considered Haram. From one point of view, you could say bad music is Haram, although that's definitly subjective and I am talking about the Islamic point of view specifically.

But I don't give a crap I'm hardly a hardliner, I smoke weed, drink. Islam is in my heart but I go about it my own way. In my view, poorly played music is Haram, an insult to God's ears.

(there is a difference to learning and playing bad in my book though - it's do with level of effort/intention imo, you've gota put your soul into it. Nothing wrong with learning, it's progressive. Everyone plays shoddy at first, but it's the point of always trying to get better, not saying "this crap will suffice" compromise is whats bad imo)

Ah, thanks for clearing that one up.

only fundie Muslims ban music - in Malaysia, there's Islamic praise music, you know - (nasyid) and the most popular singers are usually Malays/Muslims

Now you know why I'm so confused. And yeah, doesn't surprise me that there IS Muslim music with actual musical instruments. As crukster was saying, there's a pretty strong Turkish music culture too.

The thing about the Turkish culture is because of the geographical location, Turkey and in particular Istanbul has always been a melting pot of cultures. Slavic, Romanic, Jewish, Christian, Greek, Turk etc. there's always been all sorts of people living there so the music has influences from all of these places; that is something that distinguishes it from say Iraq or Afghanistan. It's the Bridge between the East and West.

But speaking from a strictly religious viewpoint even, the Book of Dede Korkut is a Turkic folklore passed around all the old Turk states; Kyrghzstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijain etc. and it's from the first days of when the old nomads adopted Islam; it's all these stories about this old man who'd walk around with a Saz singing stories.

http://www.pick-uptheworld.com/images/saz.jpg

http://wiki-images.enotes.com/thumb/...00px-DQNAJ.JPG

This is a statue of the dude


And for 1000 years maybe, there have been wandering poets called "asiks" (ah-shooks) who would sing about all sorts; God, Work, lost Loves etc. I know Iran have something similar to that.


This is all very real, and very Islamic. There is this tendency to limit Islam to the middle eastern countries. But there are Islamic countries worldwide, Turkey, Malaysia like Il Duce said, even the Uighur state that went Rogue from China recently, many more

And all these countries are operating well within the bounds of Islam - arguably some of them contributed many of the things that are traditional to Islam. When a country is in a dire situation they cling to old traditions, which is arguably why the middle east is so fundamentalist. The West bombs the **** out of it, rapes the land and then asks why they're fundamentalist - cos you ****ed their home land up the arse and the religion is all they have left, thats ****in why derp!! And it bothers me that the World sees the entirety of Islam as fundamentalist and anti-proggressive. When in fact Islam is based on the very ideas of tolerance and progression. Compare it to what the Turks where doing before that - cutting your thriat and drinking it, raping and pillaging villages, wearing wolf skins and engaging in depraved rituals. That's fun and all, dont get me wrong I'd have a blast doing that. But when you look at the bigger picture, Islam has brought Humanity and our understanding of the Universe a long way.

As have Judaism and Christianity.

As have Buddhism, Hinduism.

As have most all religions that teach some decent Universal laws for people to live by.

One thing that turned me away from the Christian religion is their holy text.

I don't like the bible for the fact that I always felt like whoever translated the scrolls into the readable text that we have to today. Left out important information and just put in whatever they wanted to make it "work". There is documentation that there are several books that have been left out of the Bible that occurs in between the Old Testament and the New one.

I also don't like the fact that it was mainly Catholics that helped to translate the Bible. I have major issues with Catholics but I will get into that another time.

I have a question

Do Atheists consider themselves a religion? that just seems like an oxymoron to me.

So, am I to understand from this that you don't have your own ideology? or morals? or purpose? and that Judaism provides the nonsensical, reward-punishment way of life for you to follow so that you can think less?

Sounds like obscurantism and misology.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. PM if you don't think posting them in here is a good idea. Or you don't have to tell me anything, I was just curious. My dad was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, and has always said he didn't hesitate to push it out of his life, and he did so when he married my mother. I get the feeling that people today are leaving Catholicism in droves and I have some theories on why that may be, but I love to hear what other people have to say about this.

Lepanto, October 7, 1571 :rofl:

My mummy taught me how to express the good, compassionate boy innate in me.
Don't most Turkish people 'believe' that humans once lived with dinosaurs?

In my experience a lot of atheists tend to be pretty evasive about that. The ones I've talked to online (which maybe don't represent the core of atheism and are probably just angry 12 year olds) tend to go by the rule of, while they're telling you how bad religion is, atheism is not a religion or group of any sort, it's just the name "given to them" like infidel or heathen.

But outside of the discussion/in another discussion, those same people argue atheism deserves as much respect as any religion because the choice of "non-belief" (in what tends to be specifically the Abrahamic Faiths) is in itself, apparently a belief and a group. It's hypocrisy.

I think it's stupid. If you truly don't believe in any religion, then there is no relevant word or group you're a part of, religiously speaking. Where you'd write "place your religion here" you'd leave a blank space surely.

That's why generally speaking I don't like atheism, don't respect it. If someone choose not to believe in a religion, or for that matter ANY religion, or God at all, then fine I respect that that's their choice.

But not atheism - atheism to me, equals anti-belief, and nothing in it's own right. I think atheism is arguably the way of the anti-christ, the false messiah, the serpent.

It's completely different from not-believing. People have crisis of faith, people choose not to believe, thats up to them, its not anti- anything it's just the way they go.

But to devote yourself to being ANTI- anything, well then, you cant go and ask for respect from those people. And thats what atheism is imo - anti-religion.


lmao how did you get that from what geddybass said? Do you think people just pull morals and belief and purpose out of their arse? Unless you've been alive for 10,000 years you can't in any way present a personal moral structure that could rival that which the Abrahamic faiths are built on.

I don't want to speak for her, I'm sure she'll answer you, but personally speaking, my religion is the foundation for my morals and purpose. I build on it, adapt it as I see fit and try utmost to do what I believe is right, and live my life like that. I'm sure that's what a lot of people do, maybe I'm flawed in my execution but if so I'll learn from it. That hardly equates to thinking less.




Lepanto wut? Try 29 May 1453 Istanbul when we pulled our ships over the hills with the chains and ****ed the Romans out of our land. Try Gallipoli 1916 when we defended the border against the United forces of the entire western "civilization". The Ottoman Empire was alive and well until the end of WWI. You think one defeat is anything against the entire campaign and History of the Turks? Turks are still alive and strong. If all the Turkic states formed a Union, as is likely will happen, they'll be a World superpower. USA know that, that's why they're scared.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...cLanguages.png

All of those in both shades of blue there. Imo that'll be one of the sides in the next World War.

You can't keep a Turk down. So he loses a battle, well he wins the ****ing war, my friend.

Your mummy who? Dinosaurs wtf?

Are you ****in retarded man, you wanna outright racially insult me, my Blood Homeland, my People? No we do not believe people lived with dinosaurs. Gtfo you ignorant dikhead.

Man you're jealous cos I know my roots. Go learn your own, that's all I can say.

Whoa....nationalism....
Ok, ok, ok: YOUR people are better at killing, and holding grudges; so simian.

I thought only gorillas are proud of killing and hurting.

Fukc America, and the horses they rode in on.

'The next world war'? That is such primitive, atrocious way of thinking. I'll be sure to bring some bananas for you and your gorilla killing tribe.

Can you prove that the majority of your kind don't believe humans lived with dinosaurs?

Errm, actually, no, I don't think people extract morals and belief and purpose from their arse.
Why do you think that is possible?

I don't know how long it takes gorillas to develop compassion and love, but humans do it in about 9 months.

Ok, prove it. Ask me any question to test my morals. Provide situations that require a moral decision, and I guarantee my 'personal moral structure' will be much deeper and more effective than 'faiths' are built on.

No, we don't. Why would we?

Yeah, I was talking to a friend of mines last night and she said they are technically considered a religion.

I understand why she says they are technically a religion because the definition of religion states a group of people that share the same ideas/ideology. Which is true, they all believe in the non-existence of deities but it just seems like such an oxymoron to have an Atheist Church.

She said there are Atheist churches that exist. I'm like wtf. What do they even talk about there?

I have no problems discussing it here. There is a verse in the bible saying not to worship false idols and something about rituals. Everything that Catholics do is ritualistic if you have ever gone to one of those services. They do that ashe thing where the alter boy goes around. I forget what it is supposed to represent but it's still a ritual. Communion is a ritual but a lot of other denominations also practice this ritual. There are numerous others but I can't go into detail about them because I've never been to one of their services. I just know this information from what I have seen in movies/heard second hand from actual Catholics. The hypocrisy of that alone makes me dislike Catholics.

I also don't like how they persecuted the Illuminati. I have to research this one more but my knowledge of this is strictly from what I have seen of Da Divinci Code and the slight research I did after seeing it. I need to learn more about it though.

I think the reason that others have for not liking Catholics has to do with them ignoring the few bad seeds that are making Catholicism look bad as a whole. The Fathers that have been caught molesting young children.

What is the purpose of your churches then? I'm curious

Churches? :rofl:

exactly! that's what I thought upon hearing it at first but I'd like to be enlightened. it's not nice to laugh at others religions.

That is untrue. Not all atheists hold beliefs about the existence of deities. Many atheists simply lack belief. Therefore, atheism cannot "technically be a religion", at least not in the traditional and most popular sense of the word.

For further information and a clearer explanation:

I don't see how following ANY religion, whether it be Judaism, Islam, Christianity or any other religion for that matter equates to 'thinking less'. Indeed, there ARE people who choose to treat their religion as a get-out-of-thinking clause, but there are also people within different religion who are highly intelligent and who do think for themselves. Even the likes of Richard Dawkins will admit that there exists a highly-complex, highly nuanced and intelligent religious group who don't settle for easy answers.

Also, study is a major part of the Jewish culture. Even from the earliest times, Jewish people would study in the yeshivot (kinda like a Sunday school for younger Jews) and the beit midrash (a Torah college of sorts for adult scholars and sometimes teenagers), and see the study of Torah (and more recently, of science) as a duty of being Jewish. There's no such thing as an easy answer in Judaism and anyone who thinks that Judaism provides some easy cut-and-paste answers to all life's problems is wrong.

Also, I wasn't born Jewish, and indeed until I went to uni some 4 years ago I'd never read a siddur, been to a synagogue or even heard of Seder. It's not like I was born into this system and had some system of thought imposed upon me from day 1. I was brought up in a vaguely Christian home, and attended church schools. I wasn't forced to attend any church services or to believe in anything, and so it happens that I formed my own ideas about morality under my own steam, and my own ideology about the world and about any god that might exist. It just so happens that my ideas about these things match to what is taught in Judaism.

Also, it's not like there's no room for personal freedom in a religion. I can still have my own ideas, my own dreams, my own ideas on what my purpose is, but within the framework of Judaism, which I believe will help, not hinder, me in achieving those things. OK, I've had to change things, such as what I wear and eat, but otherwise I'm still very much the person I was before. Hell, I'm probably a BETTER and happier person than before, because I believe that the Jewish systems of kashrut, tnizut and halakha are the right things to do.

I cannot understand why you seem so hostile.

And I cannot understand how you think I seem hostile.

I asked a question.

It seems to me that you evaluate yourself according to the doctrines of Judaism, and whatever esle; that doesn't leave much room for counterfactual thought or humanism.

You're the one calling my religious beliefs 'nonsensical' and seem to think that anyone who is religious is also stupid.

So?
That is not hostile.
And I didn't say '...that anyone who is religious is also stupid,' I said religious dogmatism is stupid

You really don't understand how you seem hostile in this thread? In the last 3 pages or so you've insulted nearly every one's religious choice for absolutely no reason, giving completely ridiculous reasons for doing so and dodging serious questions. What do you base anything that you think on? Past experiences? Yep. Where did you learn those morals? School and family. You might not want to accept it, but your morals came from somewhere too. There is no reason to insult people who choose to live by a code because it's what they believe.

Also, you said that Geddy can't think for himself and implied that the entire Turkish race is stupid. Just sayin.

I evaluated Judaism according to what I believe, not the other way round. The fundamentals of what I believe were in place LONG before I discovered Judaism or indeed religion full-stop.

No, you said this:

''So, am I to understand from this that you don't have your own ideology? or morals? or purpose? and that Judaism provides the nonsensical, reward-punishment way of life for you to follow so that you can think less?''

You directly say that following Judaism is about 'thinking less', and that it's 'nonsensical'.

Come on, I'm not trying to be some evangelical nutcase here. I'm merely stating my case as I see it. No-one is forcing you to believe in anything and I'm being respectful of YOUR beliefs.

Seems to me that Schranz Bass is either a) trolling us all or b) is simply question dodging to avoid answering difficult questions.

I grew up as a Protestant Christian, but I always had doubts for as long as I can remember. My mom and grandma (who has lived with us since I was about 5) are pretty lax in practice in an already moderate religion, which means they go to church once a year. My dad, brother and I tag along because it means alot to my mom and grandma, and basically it's just a family outing (we go every Christmas Eve).

As for beliefs, I don't know. I'm open to anything. I know that I will never know anything about a "higher power" so I don't waste my time speculating about it. I guess you can consider me an agnostic.

^sounds like most of Britain's Christians TBH.

I think this is the best way of going about things. Some people get too absorbed in either proving or disproving the existence of some sort of god (I'll admit that I've been guilty of this) instead of just leading a happy life.

I'll say right off the bat that I consider myself an atheist and I'm not angry or a 12 year old. I'm pretty uncaring about labels, but by definition I would be an atheist since atheism is basically the non-belief in a God or Gods. I don't know why you equate atheism with anti-religion. I know some atheists are anti-religion but that's not what atheism is.

For myself, religion just is not a part of my life. It isn't something I really think about or care about. I don't care what others believe in either, though I do find it stupid that some people let religion run their lives. I personally don't consider atheism a religion. Like you said in your first paragraph, I consider atheism a term given to people who do not believe in a God.

Well put.

You're right, but I am laughing more at the concept of a non-religion (I don't consider it one) of having a church. Maybe a meeting place/group/gathering, but I wouldn't refer to it as a church (but I'd rather argue about semantics at this point).

One of the best posts I've read. :D

MOST atheists I've met are happy for me to practice my religion as long as I leave them to their own beliefs.

You hit the nail squarely on the head there regarding atheism. :clap:

ty for that. I used to think that all Atheists were strong ones and I didn't know about the ones that just simply lack belief all together.

My friend, you've already proven it with your assumptions on my ethnic kin.


There's a lot more to life than the words compassion and love. Take your compassion and love to the darkest corners of the globe and see how far they get you.

Establish a society based on your "compassion and love" and see how long it lasts.

If you don't want to follow a faith, or pledge to a religion, that's your own decision. But any sane, morally upstanding person on the planet, whether they're religious or not, can't deny the inherent practicality, functionality, and pure basic righteousness of the Abrahamic system. Either you don't know it well enough, in which case, study. Or you do know it, and you think the whole lesson of love thy neighbour, love thy Planet, love and assist your fellow Human in the name of Humanity and Almighty God is MOOT and worthless.

In which case this discussion is moot and worthless, because you're obviously using the word "moral" as some sort of semantic wordplay, referring to the idea of appeasement and a good looking "social image."

Fuk social image that's as fickle as a cat. What WORKS is better than what "looks nice". I'm talking about doing actual good, actual progressive things, having a clean heart and mind and approaching the World for what it is. You don't HAVE to be religious to do that.

If you do that, though, you'd have no problem with religion itself, only the people that corrupt it. Because religion itself is the establishment OF those rules and ideas, passing them down to each generation, building on them and continuing to progress. If you think a certain idea that's been passed down has been corrupted, or isn't functional, then fine, sure that's your own intelligent right and let's all look into it.

But at the very basic core of what RELIGION is, set aside any specific religion, but religion itself, at it's core:

Well it's the idea of writing down what works, and passing it on to the next group of people. So that they dont spend a long time kicking around in the mud, trying to solve the same problems that were solved a millenia ago.

We have new problems. We've got a healthy body but rotten leaves. And you wanna pull up the tree by the roots and start over?

Before you can even do that, anyway, you would have to be an expert on every religion in order to say that every tenent in EVERY religion, every rule, every moral, every guideline, is wrong.

Thou shalt not Kill, is that wrong?

Thou shalt not steal, is that wrong?

Honour thy Mother and thy Father, is that wrong?

You see where I'm going with this.

I'm not saying people should neccessarily follow them unquestionably, or that they should follow them because they've been "told" to, or that they should follow them for fear of Hell. I'm not saying that at all. I am saying they should follow them because they choose to, because they believe in them, and because they recognise their practicality in the real World.

Hell, I AM going to Hell. That's what Islam says - me, you, everyone, regardless of what you believe, burns in the flames as penance relative to their sins. Who can say they've never sinned, never done anything they knew was wrong? But through that penance you understand your sins and progress onwards to Paradise, Heaven; whatever that may be - EVERYONE. So long as they accept their sins and understand the functionality of the Universe. How long you burn is up to you. Not that I'm judging or anything, simply stating what I believe. If you disagree and think I'm crazy, so-be-it, good luck to you man. That's your choice, if you like fire, play with fire, what can I say.

I'm not saying be a sheep and follow the herd. I'm also saying don't go to the other extreme and be a stubborn sheep and stop the herd.

I'm saying stop being a SHEEP. Be a shepherd. Be a Human. Don't form ideaologies adjacent or parallel or "anti-" to others, because when they fall, you'll fall with them. I am saying form intelligent functional ideas, that will welcome any shared goal with any group, because the ideas are functional, and intelligent I.E. It is important what you DO, not what you call it. Muslim, Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Agnostic hell even "atheist" - I don't give a ****, I care about what people DO.

If you write off every religion just because it's a source of authority, then you're as bad as the fundamentalists.

I am saying approach religious ideas with an intelligent mind, apply what works, and fix what doesn't.

I am saying have faith in Existence.

Have faith in Almighty God.



It's personally speaking - if I weren't religious I wouldn't call myself an atheist. I'd just say "I'm not religious, I have no belief about that stuff"

Either it factors into your life and the way you approach things, if that's the case you are religious.

Or it doesn't and you're simply not a religious person.

I don't like labels, maybe some people like the term atheist because it gives a collective "group" to the non-believers, a collective "voice"

well if I weren't religious, I wouldn't want a collective voice, personally. I'd just have my own voice. Because I think if you want to lend your voice to a "collective voice" or group, then it's better to actually have something to say, instead of just "I don't believe in what those other groups are saying", get what I'm saying?

Like I said, I don't care, it matters more what people do. I just think the name is innaccurate, and I think a lot (not neccessarily all) of "atheists" aren't doing good things for the Planet. The idea of atheism is self-defeating imo.

Well said crukster!

My two cents on the subject...

There is absolutely no way of proving the existence of a god, yet there is also no way of disproving the existence of a god. Obviously, this is where belief comes in.

I personally see the most rational stance on the subject as being Agnostic. There is no way of knowing either way, so just live your life as it unfolds before you.

I used to be very anti-religious, I freely admit that. I viewed the idea of living your life by a set of codes and regulations as constricting; alienating yourself from the true nature of being. As I mature and accrued a modicum of perspective, however, I came to appreciate that people's religious beliefs are just their own way of dealing with a world that, ultimately, is alien to all human beings in some aspect. It's necessary to assert meaning to an existence that often appears meaningless, and Judaism, Christianity etc etc are just some of the ways in which people do that. They offer structure and security.

Others will disagree, and I respect everybody's beliefs, these are just mine.

hmmm, I thought Agnostics were more of the belief that something may exist but they aren't sure what. They do believe there might be a higher power so they consider themselves at least spiritual. That was always my impression of what an Agnostic is. I could be completely wrong though.

As long as I'm here, I'll put my views up for the world since I'm a little different than a lot of people. I was raised Christian and I'm still Christian, though I don't consider myself the best example. I grew up in the Lutheran Missouri Synod faith, going to church every Sunday. What I didn't like is that most people didn't do anything. They went to church and maybe were involved in meetings for the church and all, but no form of community service. The youth group, which I was involved in, did a tiny bit of community service events, but still not much. And for the adults, the extent of the community involvement was a yearly event holding up signs saying that abortion kills babies and the like. That really pisses me off. Also, during my mid to late teenage years a lot of members sort of looked down on me and thought I was a bad person because of what I did outside of church (drugs). The hypocrisy of a group that preached living like Jesus but, for a majority of members, never bothered to actually try to help anyone that needed it, just doesn't do it for me. Instead I volunteer my time helping people. This further separated me from my church, because I chose to volunteer in DC at a needle exchange clinic. I was actually told to my face by multiple people that I was doing a horrible thing, so I said **** it I'm done. I'd prefer to spend my time helping people that need it than worshiping God and saying Christians should help everyone but then deeming some people unworthy.