SATCHMO Spouts About Science, Life, and Isms: Another Goddamn Religion Thread
I am an atheist.
Okay, I'm a very soft atheist, but nonetheless I lack a believe in god(s), which qualifies me for the club, although it's a club that I rarely attend. I just get the transcripts from the meetings. The truth is, I have an issue with atheism, mainly atheists, and it's not that they lack a believe in a god(s), it's that their posture is one defiance and resistance toward the positive aspects of religion without any sort of compassion or understanding towards those who do have faith, although quite understandably so. I hate the cold analytical perspective of materialism, the notion that if it can't be perceived directly through the senses, or has no evidence to back it, it doesn't exist. I wish that there was a tendency in atheism to choose to fill in the void of "lack of belief" with something greater, more positive, and beneficial to human kind, an eager curiosity, something that begs the question, "if not God, then what". Usually this question gets tossed about in the argument over how the universe began, but I would like to see it venture further into other areas with a genuine sense of curiosity for what truly lies beneath the psychology of the religious experience, both in its practice and as religion as a map of ultimate reality in general. Obviously I've made a lot of broad generalizations about atheists that don't hold true to all who carry the card, but it was done to challenge or call out the strong voices of the forum (you know who you are) and really speak to this side of the issue. These are some of the questions that I have: Is it possible to distill the positive aspects of religion/spirituality? To objectively explore spiritual practice as a mental hygiene tool, one that has positive benefits to it's practitioners? Can we come, will we come to an objective understanding of what spirit is and understand it's dynamic? When people speak of God, is there something that exists in reality that word points toward, not necessarily an anthropomorphic, autonomous deity, but something else entirely? What do we make of the religious experience? Is it simply a psychological aberration because it's subjective? If it's an induceable state and it brings joy, is that not a strong argument for trying to attain it, or duplicate it? That's all I got for now. I'll be playing my own form of devil's advocate with everybody, which will be much more insightful and productive than arguing with an actual religious person. If you are a Christian, or religious person be careful what you post, because I'll delete it if you create frivolous arguments. This is a thread of suspending one's current perspective and that means both sides of the issue. Anyways, carry on. |
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The fact that they occur is an argument for "trying to attain" a spiritual experience but not a strong one. They seem to happen when they happen for whatever reason. I guess you can meditate for years and have one, or go to a church and have a communal one, or take drugs and have one, or something else entirely. We don't know what causes all of them. As for duplicating those experiences, I'm hellbent against the idea. If a religious experience happens to a person then they have to choose how to deal with it and I think attempting to duplicate it, grasp it, and own it is wrong because actually duplicating it is improbable and attempts to do so are probably detrimental. No experiences last forever and certainly not religious experiences. I'd say most of the problems that religions cause in the world result from the belief that people can and should duplicate previous religious experiences. |
Before I start, I'm agnostic, I neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence of a deity, though I am strongly sceptical. Ultimately, conclusive proof for or against said existence is beyond our knowledge. I do swing towards the side of Atheism, in that I think the existence of a deity is highly unlikely, and belief in such merely serves a social and psychological purpose.
There are positive aspects to religious belief systems. For example, Protestantism instilled in its practitioners a moral code and work ethic which were both essential to the productivity of the Industrial Revolution. Society requires some sort of control to function, and historically, religion has been the main source of this. Granted, things are quite different now with the rise to power of the media etc (media as religion is a completely different topic altogether). It also cultivates a sense of community, which can provide a support structure - something I think is needed for people to truly thrive. Be this as it may, I do think the cons outweigh the pros. Though we do require structure and an element of control, human beings should also have the courage to tackle life head on and continually pursue new experiences. We should all be able to express ourselves fully and engage with our passions - that's where the beauty of life lies. Of course we should all respect others and work hard for our privileges, but some religions, if not all, rely on coercion, and to me living in the shadow of fear or threats succeeds in doing nothing but dehumanizing an individual. It's easily corruptible, and that's where serious problems arise. However, on a personal level, I fully accept a person's need to believe in some higher power. I'm sure it can be very comforting believing that, in times of personal struggle or chaos, there is somebody watching over you, and that everything will work out for the best. It also provides answers to life's questions, and human beings feel at their most comfortable and empowered when having an explanation. I'm prepared to discuss my points in a civil manner, but anybody wanting to get in to some hardcore religious debate can back the fuck up. |
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Why they should let it go is your next question. Quote:
I basically feel that religious experiences can be had and appreciated but that it's harmful for a person to turn that experience into a belief even for that person, let alone their influence on others. Beliefs can be dangerous because only reality matters. In other words, have your religious experience if you do, but don't get obsessed by it because doing so inclines one to neglect reality. |
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But seriously, I'm an atheist too, and like you I'm of the soft variety of atheist that so many people seem to enjoy misrepresenting. Like everybody else, I do not have absolute knowledge, but what I do understand about the world around me does not seem to point to a god or gods of any kind and I live my life under the assumption that there aren't any. Quote:
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The other aspects of my experience though? Not so much. |
lemme say first - I am a Deist
i think most people here already know I am a Gnostic Christian, yet I don't see science and God as non-magisterial overlaps - to rephrase Dawkins i appreciate that my Christian experiences may have some scientific reasoning, yet i do not discount that there was a spiritual force behind it i do not believe in a loving benign God - the evidence around me denies it, there's too much violence and abuse in the world to want to believe in a God that lovingly protects people in fact, i only believe in a chaotic impartial being at the epicentre of the Universe, where all life originated from, and that Jesus is the loving force, and belief in him will only make him an advocate for you during the Apocalypse's aftermath, as to whether you will end up in Heaven or not it's somewhat akin to a stern father like in Catholicism, but i would say he's a father that doesn't bother and let you do what you like and only through Christ you are saved i rebuke against common views of Jesus, and instead believe in the so-called Gnostic Gospels as well (where Jesus is closer to superhuman), those that were dispelled during the Nicene Creed as the "canonical gospel" and i believe in the apocryphal books as well - i have more faith in the Vulgate than the current Hebrew Old Testament i have doubts about an afterlife, cos all evidence just points to a light switching off when you die - and even if there is one, I will probably end up in Purgatory, cos Jesus can't make a strong enough case for me yet hope i made sense |
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Before I engage you on this topic Satchmo, you must do two things for me.
-You must clarify more clearly what you mean by "the positive aspects of religion". Eager curiosity? Psychology of the religious experience? What do you actually mean when you reference these things? -You must present an argument for why it is desirable to pursue these "positive aspects" I just asked you to clarify. Why should I spend time dredging up a counter-argument to an argument that has not been made? Simply saying that religion can bring positive things to the human experience is not enough. |
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What is it that is intrinsic to the religious experience that makes it a positive life enhancing experience when it turns out to be such? Can we take these intrinsic components and divorce them from the supernatural, dogmatic, and oppressive bulk of what religion presents us with and seek to understand how these components may effectively enhance our mental and emotional well-being and further utilize those to add greater depth to the human experience? I am talking about the psychology of the religious experience, not so much the speaking-in-tongues, quasi-delusional aspect of the experience, but human growth psychology as it pertains to religion. |
Okay, that is much easier to respond to. Yes, as a "hard atheist", I would agree that religion in its most commonly understood form (a set of beliefs and behaviors) offers something that can enrich the human experience. However, is this positive aspect of religion something that can be achieved solely under the umbrella of a supernatural, dogmatic, and oppressive system of thought-- something like many of the major Abrahamic or Eastern religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc)?
On that point, I'm inclined to say "No." I think you can enrich the human experience with the benefits of religion without necessarily resorting to religious beliefs and behavior. It's difficult to go into detail here because I have not been presented with a platform with which to elaborate on, but I can give this example: Though I do not believe in anything beyond the natural world, and though I try to refrain from spending my time doting on things beyond the scope of science and logic, I am regularly awed and humbled by what we do know about the universe as a result of rational, scientific inquiry. I consider it a hobby of mine to seek education in what the forefront of technology has enabled us, as one species inhabiting one infinitesimal corner of existence, to understand about the world in which we inhabit. We live in an era several hundred years after the industrial revolution, where quality of life per capita has skyrocketed and advances in every field of life are made with rapidity that history has never seen before. Why would anyone choose not to take advantage of these facts? Why would anyone choose to spend their time in a world of unfalsifiable guesswork that was conjured up primarily in the bronze age when they could instead enrich their lives with what humanity has worked over two millennia to understand? When you speak of the "psychological" aspect of religion, I imagine you're speaking of the feelings associated with coexisting in a community of people who claim to hold answers to life's most thought-provoking questions. This is a powerful set of feelings to have, and in that sense, you can take "science" as just one more religion in the world that provides a source for those feelings. Science is my dogma, my creed, and my code, and I think Neil Tyson summarizes it quite nicely. "God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance." That awe, that sense of connectedness and wonder, that sense of being a part of something greater than yourself that is so commonly associated with the religious experience? To me, there is no greater source of these things than our global community of an ever-progressing world of scientific inquiry. |
Alas, I had the perfect little 20 minute video to go with this thread, but I can't post it until I have made 15 posts??? That is a . . . highly interesting rule...
Perhaps you can try googling alain_de_bo or Atheism 2.0 |
I don't believe in God or whatever name is given to him.
I greatly admire peoples faith regarding their need to have an outside force that they can't control but admire or participate in. I sent a very long email to the vicar who presided over Elaines funeral service thanking him but I also expressed my own doubts about religion and he still hasn't replied over a month later which reinforced my own personal stance regarding religion I.E he doesn't have an answer that could begin to satisfy my despondency at this time. Religion is a need for many people whether it relates to them on a physical or other level and I wouldn't dare to deny them that right but I didn't believe in a god before and I most certainly don't believe at all since a decent family has been left motherless. |
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