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-   -   Slavery & the Civil War (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/60792-slavery-civil-war.html)

Unknown Soldier 02-08-2012 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1151863)
Nah there were a couple, Kentucky, Delaware, and I think two more at least.

I thought it was Kentucky, Tennessee, Maryland, Delaware and Kansas but when war broke out sides had to be chosen, whilst others decided to remain neutral initially.........Now if I had my civil war history book close at hand I'd find it in a jiffy.

midnight rain 02-08-2012 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 1151864)
I thought it was Kentucky, Tennessee, Maryland, Delaware and Kansas but when war broke out sides had to be chosen, whilst others decided to remain neutral initially.........Now if I had my civil war history book close at hand I'd find it in a jiffy.

I think it was Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri, all who got pressured by Washington to stay in the Union.

Engine 02-08-2012 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1151860)
Well, I guess the best I can provide is a comparison. Would you find it okay if an adult today was hanging this flag over his house:


because his grandfather fought bravely in WWII and he wanted to honor his legacy? I think the American Civil War is very unique in that the Confederacy (the losing side) is celebrated almost as much as the Union. Just take a trip down south and you'll see all the monuments dedicated to the bravery of the South. Not something you'd find in Germany I'd imagine.

I think that's an unfair comparison because you're comparing two entirely different political landscapes. To answer your question, I feel that in a perfect world, a non-bigoted German would be allowed to fly that flag in honor of his grandfather, and not be a social outcast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1151860)
Out of interest, what do people think of John Brown, a domestic terrorist or a hero?

Hero. I would have been an abolitionist personally.

Janszoon 02-08-2012 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1151863)
I think it was Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri, all who got pressured by Washington to stay in the Union.

I believe Delaware was a slave state in name only and Kentucky was technically part of the confederacy, though it remained sort of neutral during the war. Maryland is the state I was referring to in my previous post. And Missouri was basically engaged in its own internal civil war at the time so it wasn't exactly what you'd call a willing part of the union.

midnight rain 02-08-2012 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engine (Post 1151866)
I think that's an unfair comparison because you're comparing two entirely different political landscapes. To answer your question, I feel that in a perfect world, a non-bigoted German would be allowed to fly that flag in honor of his grandfather.

Well you yourself say 'in a perfect world' which I think means that bias aside, it's not a terrible comparison. Keep in mind that not only did the Confederacy represent the belief that one race was superior to the other it also represents treason to our country. I guess you look at it as detaching the beliefs that inspired those actions from the picture, leaving just the heroic actions of the Confederacy?

If the laws had been upheld properly, Robert E. Lee and all the other generals of the CSA would have been executed for their crimes.



Quote:

Hero. I would have been an abolitionist personally.
And I would agree with you.

Unknown Soldier 02-08-2012 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1151860)
because his grandfather fought bravely in WWII and he wanted to honor his legacy? I think the American Civil War is very unique in that the Confederacy (the losing side) is celebrated almost as much as the Union. Just take a trip down south and you'll see all the monuments dedicated to the bravery of the South. Not something you'd find in Germany I'd imagine.

Germany in both WWI and WWII were the aggressors and also on both occasions had the strongest military and economy for fighting a war and also initiated both conflicts. Whereas the Confederacy, was not the aggressor but more the victim and started as the firm underdog, for that reason it can treat its soldiers as heroes.

Farfisa 02-08-2012 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1151865)
I think it was Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri, all who got pressured by Washington to stay in the Union.

Maryland was pretty much split in two, there were people who fought for the confederacy and the union in my state. I was kind of disappointed after finding out as a kid that "all us Marylanders didn't fight for the union". Doesn't matter much to me now, knowing my ancestors hadn't even gotten out of Germany at the time. ;)

midnight rain 02-08-2012 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1151868)
I believe Delaware was a slave state in name only and Kentucky was technically part of the confederacy, though it remained sort of neutral during the war.

Not name only, it wasn't very prevalent, but it was still legal. I think that qualifies it as a slave state. Kentucky was part of the border states, but sided with the Union after the Confederate army moved into their state.

Engine 02-08-2012 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 1151869)
Well you yourself say 'in a perfect world' which I think means that bias aside, it's not a terrible comparison. Keep in mind that not only did the Confederacy represent the belief that one race was superior to the other it also represents treason to our country. I guess you look at it as detaching the beliefs that inspired those actions from the picture, leaving just the heroic actions of the Confederacy?

If the laws had been upheld properly, Robert E. Lee and all the other generals of the CSA would have been executed for their crimes.

I don't believe in capital punishment, I don't think the idea that the Confederacy was treasonous to the US matters much, and I know that US citizens in the free states were generally as racist as those in the slave states.

midnight rain 02-08-2012 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier (Post 1151870)
Germany in both WWI and WWII were the aggressors and also on both occasions had the strongest military and economy for fighting a war and also initiated both conflicts. Whereas the Confederacy, was not the aggressor but more the victim and started as the firm underdog, for that reason it can treat its soldiers as heroes.

The victim of what exactly? Oh poor South they don't get to keep their slave labor anymore, LOL. I think you need another history lesson, chief.

They were the underdog, but plenty of wars have been won by the sides with the smaller army.


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