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ladyislingering 04-02-2014 01:19 AM

Past-Life Regression
 
1. Do you believe in reincarnation?

2. Do you theorize that you've had several lives before the one you're in?

3. Please explain.

4. Have you ever seen a mystic/psychic to be more in-touch with your past life/lives?

4a. Please share the results of this/these visit(s).

5. If you don't believe in reincarnation, please explain your stance.

Paul Smeenus 04-02-2014 02:04 AM

1. Absolutely not.

That pretty much answers the rest of the poll.

I believe that the belief in reincarnation is similar to the belief in an afterlife, in that both are understandable attempts to grasp to any immortality that can't be disproven.I accept that this is the one and only sentient time I get, and that after I die is exactly like before I was born.

Scarlett O'Hara 04-02-2014 02:21 AM

Nope. Can't say I'm worried or interested. I am living for now.

Janszoon 04-02-2014 03:46 AM

Not something I believe is real. The main reason I think that is that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest it's real. There's also the issue of how rapidly the number of people on earth is growing. Since there are so many more people now that there were a few generations ago that means, even if reincarnation were real, most people would not have had any previous human lives.

TheBig3 04-02-2014 04:06 AM

Reincarnation assumes that this is the only world. I believe that there are things beyond here we can't begin to comprehend. We'll essentially dimension hop, in death, for a time before we hit eternity.

The Batlord 04-02-2014 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Smeenus (Post 1434681)
1. Absolutely not.

That pretty much answers the rest of the poll.

I believe that the belief in reincarnation is similar to the belief in an afterlife, in that both are understandable attempts to grasp to any immortality that can't be disproven.I accept that this is the one and only sentient time I get, and that after I die is exactly like before I was born.

Logical fallacy. If you can't disprove something then you can't claim to know that it isn't true. You can not believe in it, you can even claim to actively believe that it isn't true, but to claim to know that it isn't true crosses the line of logic. It's simply logically impossible to claim to know with 100% certainty that something that can't be disproven isn't true. 99.999% sure perhaps, but that last .001% is the difference between believing and knowing. So the four people who voted for the first option are wrong. Straight up. Option two is as far as you can go.

Frownland 04-02-2014 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1434743)
Logical fallacy. If you can't disprove something then you can't claim to know that it isn't true. You can not believe in it, you can even claim to actively believe that it isn't true, but to claim to know that it isn't true crosses the line of logic. It's simply logically impossible to claim to know with 100% certainty that something that can't be disproven isn't true. 99.999% sure perhaps, but that last .001% is the difference between believing and knowing. So the four people who voted for the first option are wrong. Straight up. Option two is as far as you can go.

The burden of proof is on those purporting the theory, not the other way around.

ladyislingering 04-02-2014 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1434689)
Not something I believe is real. The main reason I think that is that there is absolutely no evidence to suggest it's real. There's also the issue of how rapidly the number of people on earth is growing. Since there are so many more people now that there were a few generations ago that means, even if reincarnation were real, most people would not have had any previous human lives.

Consider for a minute that perhaps not every living being has had a past life in order to harbor memories in their subconscious (and not every person alive, today, is a result of reincarnation) but once in a while it may happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3 (Post 1434690)
Reincarnation assumes that this is the only world. I believe that there are things beyond here we can't begin to comprehend. We'll essentially dimension hop, in death, for a time before we hit eternity.

I remember watching this cool video on youtube, some years back, about a well-constructed theory that there are at least 10 dimensions. (It's really hard to understand so you have to focus in order to sort of wrap your head around it.)

Janszoon 04-02-2014 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyislingering (Post 1434769)
Consider for a minute that perhaps not every living being has had a past life in order to harbor memories in their subconscious (and not every person alive, today, is a result of reincarnation) but once in a while it may happen.

That goes back to my primary point, which is that there's no evidence of such a thing.

The Batlord 04-02-2014 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1434745)
The burden of proof is on those purporting the theory, not the other way around.

But if you're actively claiming something doesn't exist then you're the one purporting the theory. If all you're saying is that you don't believe something then you're not making any kind of claim, but claiming that something actually doesn't exist is a claim and you have to provide proof.

If I say I don't believe there is a unicorn living on a particular undiscovered island in the South Pacific then I don't have to prove that. I simply don't believe it. If I claim that it isn't there then I actually have to prove that the unicorn doesn't live there.

Frownland 04-02-2014 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1434776)
But if you're actively claiming something doesn't exist then you're the one purporting the theory. If all you're saying is that you don't believe something then you're not making any kind of claim, but claiming that something actually doesn't exist is a claim and you have to provide proof.

If I say I don't believe there is a unicorn living on a particular undiscovered island in the South Pacific then I don't have to prove that. I simply don't believe it. If I claim that it isn't there then I actually have to prove that the unicorn doesn't live there.

Lack of evidence is proof enough that something isn't true until that evidence comes forward. That's not to mention that claiming something doesn't exist is commonly in response to someone saying that it does.

ladyislingering 04-02-2014 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1434772)
That goes back to my primary point, which is that there's no evidence of such a thing.

There's no solid evidence but there's been a few people in this world (even children) who claim to have some sort of extrasensory perception or some memory of being somewhere else. I'm a tiny bit skeptical of this case but I will admit if she's not bullshitting everyone, her soul has had a terrific journey. Someone in the comment section in the video I'll post below makes a good point about Ms. Karlen: she seems to have no concern for Otto Frank; if her soul belonged to Anne in a past life, she would have been chiefly concerned with being reunited with her father while he was still alive. HOWEVER. There are probably several reasons this didn't happen, and I'm not going to split hairs over it.

Spoiler for Barbro Karlen is Anne Frank reincarnated:

The Batlord 04-02-2014 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1434783)
Lack of evidence is proof enough that something isn't true until that evidence comes forward. That's not to mention that claiming something doesn't exist is commonly in response to someone saying that it does.

No. A lack of evidence is merely a lack of proof of something's existence, not proof that it doesn't exist. I'm an atheist who is perfectly comfortable with actively believing that god doesn't exist. I think human psychology's penchant for inventing gods anywhere and everywhere regardless of how absurd it may sound is evidence enough for me that god is nonsense, but I would never go so far as to claim to know that he doesn't exist. No matter how much I believe that he doesn't exist, I can't know that he doesn't. Same with reincarnation.

Janszoon 04-02-2014 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyislingering (Post 1434784)
There's no solid evidence but there's been a few people in this world (even children) who claim to have some sort of extrasensory perception or some memory of being somewhere else. I'm a tiny bit skeptical of this case but I will admit if she's not bullshitting everyone, her soul has had a terrific journey. Someone in the comment section in the video I'll post below makes a good point about Ms. Karlen: she seems to have no concern for Otto Frank; if her soul belonged to Anne in a past life, she would have been chiefly concerned with being reunited with her father while he was still alive. HOWEVER. There are probably several reasons this didn't happen, and I'm not going to split hairs over it.

Spoiler for Barbro Karlen is Anne Frank reincarnated:

The fact that so many people who claim to have past lives also seem to believe that they were someone significant in their previous life, despite the statistical improbability of that being the case, is actually more of an argument against reincarnation to me than an argument in favor of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1434798)
No. A lack of evidence is merely a lack of proof of something's existence, not proof that it doesn't exist. I'm an atheist who is perfectly comfortable with actively believing that god doesn't exist. I think human psychology's penchant for inventing gods anywhere and everywhere regardless of how absurd it may sound is evidence enough for me that god is nonsense, but I would never go so far as to claim to know that he doesn't exist. No matter how much I believe that he doesn't exist, I can't know that he doesn't. Same with reincarnation.

We can't truly, unequivocally know anything for sure. So either we can eliminate the word "know" from the English language or we can recognize it as meaning "I believe to an extremely high degree of certainty".

ladyislingering 04-02-2014 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1434814)
The fact that so many people who claim to have past lives also seem to believe that they were someone significant in their previous life, despite the statistical improbability of that being the case, is actually more of an argument against reincarnation to me than an argument in favor of it.

I feel that the theory that these people have (the "I was someone important in my past life" thing) sort of discredit their claims. I don't know who I was. I was probably a nobody, but I know that there's something beyond my comprehension that has filled my life with a constant discomfort and longing for a time I hadn't lived in (during this particular lifetime anyway).

The Batlord 04-02-2014 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1434814)
We can't truly, unequivocally know anything for sure. So either we can eliminate the word "know" from the English language or we can recognize it as meaning "I believe to an extremely high degree of certainty".

True. But to claim knowledge, even a negative claim that something doesn't exist, is still making a claim that something is true. And to make a claim requires proof. A lack of proof for reincarnation only proves that reincarnation hasn't been proved. Nothing more. It may be evidence for its unlikelihood, but not for its nonexistence.

And you can't claim to know something that hasn't been proved with sufficient evidence, only that you believe.

Janszoon 04-02-2014 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1434831)
True. But to claim knowledge, even a negative claim that something doesn't exist, is still making a claim that something is true. And to make a claim requires proof. A lack of proof for reincarnation only proves that reincarnation hasn't been proved. Nothing more. It may be evidence for its unlikelihood, but not for its nonexistence.

And you can't claim to know something that hasn't been proved with sufficient evidence, only that you believe.

You can't prove a negative though. So you're basically arguing here that one can never know that anything is untrue.

The Batlord 04-03-2014 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1435026)
You can't prove a negative though. So you're basically arguing here that one can never know that anything is untrue.

Well, yeah. Aside from math you can't actually prove anything. That's just the nature of science and the world in general. In the strict sense of the word you can't actually "know" much of anything. You can be sure beyond a reasonable doubt, but that's not the same thing as knowing something.

And just because you can't prove a negative (at least not a vague negative like that) doesn't mean you can make a claim and not have to prove it. If you claim that reincarnation doesn't exist you have to back it up.

Janszoon 04-03-2014 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1435155)
Well, yeah. Aside from math you can't actually prove anything. That's just the nature of science and the world in general. In the strict sense of the word you can't actually "know" much of anything. You can be sure beyond a reasonable doubt, but that's not the same thing as knowing something.

And just because you can't prove a negative (at least not a vague negative like that) doesn't mean you can make a claim and not have to prove it. If you claim that reincarnation doesn't exist you have to back it up.

You just acknowledged that you can't prove a negative but you still want proof that reincarnation doesn't exist?

The Batlord 04-03-2014 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1435199)
You just acknowledged that you can't prove a negative but you still want proof that reincarnation doesn't exist?

I'm saying that if you're making a negative claim that doesn't relieve you of your obligation to back up what you're saying. So if you're saying there is no such thing as reincarnation you have to provide evidence the same as if you're saying that it does exist.

Janszoon 04-03-2014 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1435203)
I'm saying that if you're making a negative claim that doesn't relieve you of your obligation to back up what you're saying. So if you're saying there is no such thing as reincarnation you have to provide evidence the same as if you're saying that it does exist.

I would say making a "negative claim" about something for which there's no evidence is a perfectly acceptable position.

The Batlord 04-03-2014 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1435206)
I would say making a "negative claim" about something for which there's no evidence is a perfectly acceptable position.

That doesn't make any sense. Can I then prove that there is no god by saying there is no evidence for him and not providing any other reasons?

Oh, and Wikipedia says you're wrong too.

And this random site too.

Quote:

The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

The person making a negative claim cannot logically prove nonexistence. And here's why: to know that a X does not exist would require a perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). To attain this knowledge would require simultaneous access to all parts of the world and beyond (omnipresence). Therefore, to be certain of the claim that X does not exist one would have to possess abilities that are non-existent. Obviously, mankind's limited nature precludes these special abilities. The claim that X does not exist is therefore unjustifiable. As logician Mortimer Adler has pointed out, the attempt to prove a universal negative is a self- defeating proposition. These claims are "worldwide existential negatives." They are only a small class of all possible negatives. They cannot be established by direct observation because no single human observer can cover the whole earth at one time in order to declare by personal authority that any “X” doesn't exist.
And that's after two minutes of Googling. There seem to be many more such sites backing me up that just happen to be far too long winded for me to bother with ATM.

Janszoon 04-03-2014 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1435213)
That doesn't make any sense. Can I then prove that there is no god by saying there is no evidence for him and not providing any other reasons?

Oh, and Wikipedia says you're wrong too.

And this random site too.



And that's after two minutes of Googling. There seem to be many more such sites backing me up that just happen to be far too long winded for me to bother with ATM.

Looks like you're making my case for me there.

The Batlord 04-03-2014 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1435222)
Looks like you're making my case for me there.

http://themidnightalliance.files.wor.../i-give-up.gif


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