Joe Biden Love Thread

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jwb

I didn't say they have the same exact class interests. They don't in every case. But they are both capitalists. And you can name call all you want but at the end of the day you are just purity testing people based on how well they adhere to some version of socialism you've conjured together by listening to podcasts.

Bro you don't have to be be self conscious about agreeing with socialism when you agree with socialism.

[jwb]

I'm sorry but you simply missed my point. My entire point was that the owner/ worker distinction isn't sufficient to tell us everything about class. It's one metric among many that correlate to higher status and wealth but are not synonymous with said status/ wealth.

The entire point was a business owner/ capitalist can actually be lower on the class totem pole than a successful worker from another industry.

As far as the political class interests of all business owners coinciding... that's probably not always true either. I'm sure the are things that could be lobbied for which specifically help giant corporations at the expense of small businesses or vice-versa. In that case their interests would actually be diametrically opposed.

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jwb

I'm sorry but you simply missed my point. My entire point was that the owner/ worker distinction isn't sufficient to tell us everything about class. It's one metric among many that correlate to higher status and wealth but are not synonymous with said status/ wealth.

The entire point was a business owner/ capitalist can actually be lower on the class totem pole than a successful worker from another industry.

As far as the political class interests of all business owners coinciding... that's probably not always true either. I'm sure the are things that could be lobbied for which specifically help giant corporations at the expense of small businesses or vice-versa. In that case their interests would actually be diametrically opposed.

Yes, you are agreeing with socialism.

Upper/middle/lower class is not a socialist concept. Bourgeois/proletariat is. You can make working class money and still be owning class and have owning class interests. This is called petty bourgeois.

Congratulations, comrade.

[Marie Monday]

immigrants can be bourgeois too Elph lmao

Charles is mostly right I think. Class, money and bourgeoisie/proletariat are all different things. I wouldn't say that everyone who owns a tiny business is bourgeois, but having a business generally means aiming to exploit capitalism instead of being exploited by it. What jwb said about generating wealth etc.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Yes, you are agreeing with socialism.

Upper/middle/lower class is not a socialist concept. Bourgeois/proletariat is. You can make working class money and still be owning class and have owning class interests. This is called petty bourgeois.

Congratulations, comrade.

I'm using the worker/owner distinction correctly to identify them as capitalists, yes. That doesn't mean I agree that the worker/owner distinction is a good replacement for income based class distinctions. In fact it was a demonstration for why I don't.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by elphenor

what if he were the only employee, or it's a family owned and operated business

If they don't hire anyone then you can remove the exploitation angle but nonetheless their relationship to the business resembles that of an owner, not a worker. They can pay themselves a salary which might not even be that much but that is only really limited by how profitable the business is. Fundamentally, how much money they make is irrelevant to the worker/ owner distinction. That's the point. It's not a technicality either, you are just trying to make a weird exception here based mostly on intuition from what I can tell.

[Marie Monday]

Originally Posted by elphenor

the point is that they're not inheriting wealth or social standing typically and running a sole corner store is not a vehicle for building generational wealth either

I wouldn't consider a cobbler who employes an apprentice to be a member of the bourgeois but maybe you would

Inherited social standing and wealth is class, not bourgeoisie/proletariat

[The Batlord]

Originally Posted by jwb

I'm using the worker/owner distinction correctly to identify them as capitalists, yes. That doesn't mean I agree that the worker/owner distinction is a good replacement for income based class distinctions. In fact it was a demonstration for why I don't.

Bro I'm complimenting your correct application of Marxist analysis. You don't have to get defensive.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by elphenor

merchants were kinda the equivalent of what we're talking about here in Marx day, and from what I understand, they're not considered properly part of the bourgeois

they're the "small bourgeois" who eventually lose out to the proper bourgeois

The small merchants you are referring to would also fall on the owner side of the worker/owner distinction. The particular flavor of "bourgeois" you decide to label them doesn't seem pertinent to that distinction.

Originally Posted by elphenor

it's not the money Im drawing attention to, it's that shopkeepers and artisans don't make money primarily off of their capital

that's reserved for landlords, shareholders, entrepreneurship

They make their money through owning a business in which they are the sole shareholder. That's called being an owner.

You can say but they put in work to make it successful but that's fundamentally different from doing so for a wage for a business that you don't own.

An professional athlete who makes all their money from the league once again is in fact more a member of the proletariat than said shop owner.

[jwb]

Maybe you're suggesting the owner/ worker distinction isn't good enough and needs a third category. Because whatever you want to say about a self employed plumber, by nature of going into business for himself he isn't being an exploited by a capitalist who is extracting surplus value from his labor. Which i think is like the whole source of the class antagonism between these two groups in the first place, if you are going by a Marxist lens.