Joe Biden Love Thread

~~jwb~~ · 09-06-2022, 12:31 PM

What? Lol. Tons of capitalists have to do **** like that. You are reaching my friend.

~~jwb~~ · 09-06-2022, 04:03 PM

You seem confused. You can take a loan to start a company and that doesn't make you less of a capitalist. It's a particular strategy you can employ. Sure you can say that loans are exploitation if you want (I don't agree) but if they are it's not the same type of exploitation as selling your labor to a business that they extract surplus value from. That's what we are talking about with the proletariat not some business owner who took out a loan. Yes getting a car loan doesn't make you a capitalist because the loan is for a car not capital to start a business. It also doesn't make you a worker. It's completely irrelevant.

The Batlord · 09-06-2022, 04:05 PM

Jeff Bezos and Donald Trump. Famous loan non-havers.

SGR · 09-06-2022, 04:57 PM

It was just a small loan of a million dollars.

The Batlord · 09-06-2022, 05:14 PM

Not to mention junk bond shenanigans. I couldn't tell you the difference between that and a loan but either way you're not spending your own money.

TheBig3 · 09-06-2022, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

a capitalist uses their prior wealth to invest and accumulate more wealth

if I take out a loan to purchase a lawn mower for a little landscaping endeavor, I haven't become a capitalist

...what are you then?

~~jwb~~ · 09-10-2022, 06:58 PM

... i think the intuition you actually are drawing on here is that you don't think self employed plumbers are capitalist regardless of whether they take out a loan. If the person you are describing uses their own money to start their one man plumbing business you would still not call them a capitalist. The loan part is literally just a red herring to introduce an element of exploitation. Since you know they aren't actually being exploited for their labor by an employer, you are bringing up the interest they pay to a bank to make them sound more sympathetic. But that's irrelevant to their distinction as a business owner.

Also I would say yes I wouldn't be surprised if both Trump and Bezos have put some type of labor into their respective companies. I know for a fact that people like Zuckerberg and Bill gates did. That doesn't make them any less of a capitalist either.

All of these excuses you are making for the plumber can also apply to a titan of industry. The actual difference between the small business owner and the large business owner is largely how successful they have been in their ambitions.

The Batlord · 09-10-2022, 08:17 PM

I'd say the main difference is how much money do their parents have.

~~jwb~~ · 09-10-2022, 10:16 PM

I don't agree. Obviously having wealthy parents helps but it's not necessary. Like I just Googled Zuckerberg for instance and his parents were a dentist and a psychiatrist. That's a fairly middle to upper middle class existence. Nothing particularly exceptional about it.

The Batlord · 09-10-2022, 10:58 PM

Alright Mark Zuckerberg went to Harvard, which I do not associate with a general middle class upbringing. There's money there. And not being the richest of the rich but still having seed money lying around that your average person just doesn't have is well in line with plenty colonial second, third, and fourth sons from second tier families who aren't the elites but still have money to finance colonial ventures in Africa or whatever that elevate them into the elite.

I'm too lazy to look up his background but the capital investment required just to start up Facebook is presumably relatively small when you're just talking about some form of website creation. The amount of wildly profitable Fortune 500 businesses whose startup cost is to a large extent allocated to just server space or whatever early Facebook's costs were is probably pretty small.

I'm also not assuming that whatever startup capital he managed to obtain was limited specifically to his parents as Bezos got startup capital from the community his parents were a part of. They weren't even Richy Rich rich but there was still large amounts of loose money lying around in his community that the average person would have no access to.

If you're literally just saying that having money is nice but not necessary for building massive amounts of wealth and we can all just do this with the right idea and enough elbow grease then you're delusional and full of cope.

09-06-2022, 12:31 PM	#411 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	What? Lol. Tons of capitalists have to do **** like that. You are reaching my friend.

09-06-2022, 04:03 PM	#412 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	You seem confused. You can take a loan to start a company and that doesn't make you less of a capitalist. It's a particular strategy you can employ. Sure you can say that loans are exploitation if you want (I don't agree) but if they are it's not the same type of exploitation as selling your labor to a business that they extract surplus value from. That's what we are talking about with the proletariat not some business owner who took out a loan. Yes getting a car loan doesn't make you a capitalist because the loan is for a car not capital to start a business. It also doesn't make you a worker. It's completely irrelevant.

09-06-2022, 04:57 PM	#414 (permalink)
SGR No Ice In My Bourbon Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: /dev/null Posts: 4,327	It was just a small loan of a million dollars.

09-10-2022, 06:58 PM	#417 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	... i think the intuition you actually are drawing on here is that you don't think self employed plumbers are capitalist regardless of whether they take out a loan. If the person you are describing uses their own money to start their one man plumbing business you would still not call them a capitalist. The loan part is literally just a red herring to introduce an element of exploitation. Since you know they aren't actually being exploited for their labor by an employer, you are bringing up the interest they pay to a bank to make them sound more sympathetic. But that's irrelevant to their distinction as a business owner. Also I would say yes I wouldn't be surprised if both Trump and Bezos have put some type of labor into their respective companies. I know for a fact that people like Zuckerberg and Bill gates did. That doesn't make them any less of a capitalist either. All of these excuses you are making for the plumber can also apply to a titan of industry. The actual difference between the small business owner and the large business owner is largely how successful they have been in their ambitions.

09-10-2022, 10:16 PM	#419 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I don't agree. Obviously having wealthy parents helps but it's not necessary. Like I just Googled Zuckerberg for instance and his parents were a dentist and a psychiatrist. That's a fairly middle to upper middle class existence. Nothing particularly exceptional about it.