take some seriously. workout the wheat from the chaff

the whole selling a second hand cd vs file-sharing argument does carry some weight.

fact is, the act of sharing a file or an album does not hurt an artist any more than selling a cd second hand. in both cases, the artist loses a sale and doesn't make a red cent. yet sharing a file is illegal, and selling a cd second hand is not. granted, the potential for wide-scale loss is clearly far greater in the case of file sharing, but as far as single individual acts go, there's no more harm to an artist in one or the other.

I belive I am learning the same now. :-)

If you wanna learn about philosophy listen to me.
If you wanna learn about new bands and a whole host of facts and info about new bands and music you may have never heard but may well enjoy listen to hammer.

For me it’s all about retail

I'm not talking about the massive multi million dollar making big retailers; I’m talking about the Independents, every town has them, the folk who had a dream; the dream to create their own personal music Mecca. Where they could provide good quality music to the masses in an environment, which is unique to them. I’m sure many on here have had the same dream….I know I have.

I spend most my days after work in such retailers, to the missus dismay I sift through hundreds upon hundreds of records, most of which I've never heard of whilst trying to find stuff which I will find exciting. You get a right buzz when you find a record and take it home, play it and find that its one of the best things you've ever heard. Not only that but the chap behind the counter is not some faceless character in a uniform, he knows his stuff, he has had the musical passion in the first place to buy these records for niche demographics like me who will spread the love. He might even talk to you too to share his wisdom.

As if a big retailer would sell for example an underground MC5 album from 1966, or the works of some obscure Blues musician born in 1901. Would Northern Soul even get a look in? Would original 1960's Ska be on anything other then a compilation CD in a big retailer?

It also works from another angle too, there are labels out there that spend a lot of time, energy and resource to produce quality specialist albums, and again, our sneers for the record industry are too wide spread. What about the small operations, the folk in their bedrooms who take a scratched see through vinyl from a band that only the band had ever heard of, and who take the time to repair the work, and repackage it for a whole new generation to discover as if it was new. Not only that, but they still manage to track these bands down to give them a cheque! Record Fairs are these label's patches, and you won’t find a big retailer at one of those.

This might be controversial, but for me, I always found file sharing and downloads to be slightly lazy and as I'll explain in a few paragraphs time, a big threat to the culture of music discovery. When I say lazy, I don't mean it too harshly, what I mean is that I spend my money on records, I go out and discover records, I spend time to review records, I'm basically overly enthusiastic about my new records, so much in fact that I want to share what I have learnt with the world, but I'm slightly saddened that in some cases, the chain for discovery stops there for air circulation, after that the record gets passed around through wires and I’m not sure that’s the best way to learn and pass on wisdom about the material, it is in essence easy and eventually will have negative consequences on what you hold dear, not to mention very unromantic

I appreciate that yes there is a price involved in physically buying these records, but if you read magazines, study Amazon, and know what stuff is worth, then there's not a chance on earth you could ever be ripped off. If you don't like shopping in the dark, hey there's YouTube for sample listening. But the choice for me is very simple, would I like to have an Independent Record Shop or another profitable chain shop which every town and city in the Western World has? Also what would my record collection/knowledge be like if even one small independent reissuer label never existed?

For me, I would rather fund a local business who shares my passion for music and keep his/her dream alive and more importantly....My Passion for Music, then to deprive that owner the opportunity of my custom.

The threat from the big retailers in the Western World is far too apparent to ignore. A good record shop would make an even better multi national coffee shop and a bland major label will always find ways to survive, a tragic truth which as music fans we all have a responsibility to prevent.

Exactly. Then why did Metallica have such issues? :-)

It's already happened and it happened a long time before music was downloaded for free.

The major labels have been a monopoly for over 20 years. They've had a stranglehold on radio , TV and other media outlets which has all but killed off most of the independent labels. How many true independent labels are there around now that can compare in size & structure to the likes of 4AD , Rough Trade , Creation or SST in their prime. I can think of one label , Beggars Banquet , and thats it.

The only independent labels around now are small time outfits who don't stand a hope in hell of getting any real exposure because of the stranglehold of the majors , it is not down to people downloading.
If anything it's helping them because filesharing on the internet is probably the only way people would be able to hear the stuff being produced by these labels. And it has been said many times by many people on here if a product is good they will buy it.

These labels need to realise this and make a marketing strategy to accommodate this. It's no use starting up an independent label and then start bitching & whining about your stuff being traded for free online , that's become the norm now. If your not prepared to accept it and find ways of turning that extra exposure into money then you shouldn't be running a business in the first place.

I dont really see how using the fact the number of Independent labels and stores are increasingly being swallowed up by the big boys as any justification for speeding up the process, more a call to arms. And again, just because it is the accepted norm is no indication that all is honky dory with it as a way of positive progression.

I would urge you to read my points again, I have no view about newer emerging markets and existing mainstream markets as I understand the rights and wrongs of that arguement and like to sit on the fence.

My negative points to file sharing surround niche markets and niche labels, the markets which are too small for the major players and the file sharers to be fussed with, but with whom have had the biggest impact on my musical purchases over the last few year.

I would also argue that there must be some logic, that say for example one person receiving 10 tracks by The Sonics on file share, is one lost customer for a niche retailer who for once out maneouvered the big boys and put a profitable record in his shop that they didnt want. Instead of rewarding that retailer for his musical passion, judgement and knowledge, we say he should'nt be running a business.

I find that a bit of an ill thought out idea and as suggested I fear would be a worrying slide for some retro bands into a file sharing oblivion, assuming their material ever gets re-released.

Niche bands & niche labels are probably the least affected by filesharing simply because of their appeal and their market.

To use your example if someone were to put out a Sonics album with maybe live recordings , rarities or whatever, I would say that something like that would only appeal to diehard Sonics fans who would probably like to own the real thing anyway.

Now I might download it out of interest , if I do that they've not lost a sale because I never had any intention of buying it anyway , On one hand I might decide I do like it and want to own the real thing or I might decide it's not for me and delete it.

That's the reality of it , you can either be original & innovative and sell a quality product or fall by the wayside. Which in essence is how it's always been , so nothing has changed.

I think niche is hugely effected by any shift because the margins are less.

Lets be honest here, music banter is rife with file sharers and rife with people who know niche music, the very people who would normally be physical record collectors, its not rocket science to see the effects of file sharing on niche markets whose margins are tight enough without losing a core audience.

Be it the labels, the fair traders or the stores. Without any of these three players, the various re-emerging music markets die and no one will ever recondition and rerelease any lost records, and that for me is uncomprehensible.

Retail stores don't do much to cater to niche markets. I can't remember the last time I bought a CD from a chain outlet; they're usually overpriced and the selection is bloody awful.

File sharing only kills the enormous markets for music, the people who can't be bothered to leave the comfort of their home to get the latest Britney Spears album. And when it comes down to it, the people that suffer from it are the major labels, not the musicians or the independent music stores.

The point being that the people who care enough to listen to some unknown band's music are more likely to buy it after they know they like it.

Not to go round in circles, but thats precicely why there is a need for the independents to flourish as said previously, but the margins are less for those traders and as such they will be hit hardest even by a modest drop in sales in favour of file sharing.

cough...

Personally, I think it depends on the artist.
If it's some guy you listen to on Myspace, and he has a cd he made himself, just give the extra support and buy it.
Now, for mainstream bands like Fall Out Boy, it's different. They're already making enough, if not more than enough, money from stupid stores like Hot Topic, selling albums for 15-20 dollars. It's too much.
Also, what about the bands that don't exist anymore? I think it's fine in that case, because since they're no longer together, so pretty much all of the money ends up going to the music label.

Although I have a feeling that the Virgin Megastore or HMV opening down the road will have much bigger effect on it.

It could have been anywhere but when I arrived in Oxford in 2005, there were four independent record stores to complement the high street retailers, including a dance-based one for DJs and the short-lived UK chain Fopp which had an amazing selection, typically a third the price of the larger retailers.

I've since moved but on last visit in 2008 all of these stores had disappeared, this was particularly disturbing as I had bought a lot of records there during my stay that were the soundtrack to a great time in my life (I didn't buy a desktop until 2007).

This is not like other forms of piracy down the years that have boosted innovation and ultimately benefited the industry (pirate radio, bootleggers etc) and from what I can see it's on it's way to killing hard copy music, as there are always young kids getting into music through high-speed broadband connections and not from walking into a shop and looking at the artwork or asking for that song they heard...
I'm sure some of them have never even bought a CD or read
the liner notes, pored over every record to get their money's worth

I try out an album, and if I like it, I usually go out and buy it, not only to support the band, but because it's the right thing to do.
I don't agree with this. All of what I listen to came from music blogs and websites with free album downloads. If it wasn't for all this, I wouldn't be listening to The Sound Of Animals Fighting, Mogwai, CaP'n Jazz, Joan Of Arc, etc.

No I saw it, dont worry :)

I just respectfully disagree, as I said in my first "essay", file sharing is easy, no one would do it if it was not. I dont think there is anybody who has a record for free on his/her c drive would then go out and buy the real thing, or at least not enough folk would to keep a small niche label/record shop going.

I dont know whether its a cake and eat it scenario for some, but there is an arguement to say there is a downside to it, God I've argued it, which I believe is detrimental to a whole sector of the music industry who I feel deserve better treatment.

But I'm not going to repeat myself with my view, I think I've written enough (seriously, have you see it all, its like a journal) to outline what I think from the point of view of the Independent Retailers and the Niche Record Labels, and strangely have even attempted justify it.

So thats me on the subject, unless anybody wants a cuddle or anything.

*Raises hand.

^I too have bought several albums after I heard songs from those albums as mp3s, but I'll admit it's quite a few years since that last happened. The main reason for that is I no longer use CDs, for anything. All mine are packed down into boxes and scattered, so there goes much of my collector's motivation.

i have bought all albums i have previously had for free, and any movie or tv show i enjoy i buy.

The world is changing, its time for the music industry to embrace the future. People will still buy music. Artist will still get paid from gigs, Its the middle men who get hurt. But they just exploit artist.

music is about love not money... (?)