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-   -   Did you know that Elgar's Enigma is "Pi"? (https://www.musicbanter.com/general-music/49625-did-you-know-elgars-enigma-pi.html)

Nimrod 05-29-2010 06:30 PM

Did you know that Elgar's Enigma is "Pi"?
 
In 1899 Edward Elgar introduced his Variations on an Original Theme with these words:
The Enigma I will not explain - its 'dark saying' must be left unguessed, and I warn you that the connection between the Variations and the Theme is often of the slightest texture; further, through and over the whole set another and larger theme 'goes', but is not played.... So the principal Theme never appears, even as in some late dramas ... the chief character is never on the stage.

After 30 years, no one had solved his enigma, so at age 72 he wrote these words:
The alternation of the two quavers and two crotchets in the first bar and their reversal in the second bar will be noticed; references to this grouping are almost continuous (either melodically or in the accompanying figures - in Variation XIII, beginning at bar 11 [503], for example). The drop of a seventh in the Theme (bars 3 and 4) should be observed. At bar 7 (G major) appears the rising and falling passage in thirds which is much used later, e.g. Variation III, bars 10.16. [106, 112] - E.E.

The first few bars of his music can be viewed at the following website:

File:Enigma theme.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After three years of research I have found numerous hints at Pi. One or two hints might be coincidence but more than 10 hints becomes "proof" in my opinion.

1. The first four notes are scale degree 3-1-4-2, a common approximation of decimal Pi.

2. He dedicated his work to his "Friends Pictured Within". This is a "variation" of the more common phrase, "Circle of Friends", but he probably considered that too strong a hint. (incidentally, that is what led me to look for Pi.)

3. After the first 11 notes there are two "drops of a seventh." 11 x 2/7 = 22/7, a common approximation of fractional Pi.

4. Elgar said there was a "dark saying" involved. "Four and twenty blackbirds (certainly dark) baked in a Pie (Pi), could satisfy that requirement.

5. There are exactly Four and twenty black"birds" (black notes with wings-ties/slurs) baked in Elgar's Pi melody.

6. Elgar frequently said the solution was "well known." Pi is taught to almost everyone as part of a basic education.

7. Elgar said the work was "begun in a spirit of humor".

8. Elgar composed the Enigma Variations in the year following the humorous incident known as the Indiana Pi Bill of 1897, when the legislature passed a bill to propose the method to be used for calculating Pi. This bill was based on the erroneous assumption that Pi was difficult to calculate, but it was already know to more than 100 decimal places. The scheme they proposed, "squaring the circle" had been rigorously disproven by a real mathematician several years earlier. Elgar enjoyed "japes" such as that.

9. Elgar was known for his interest and skill in puzzles. John Holt Schooling devised a puzzle and declared that no one in all of England could solve it. Elgar did solve it and his six page solution is on display in his birthplace museum.

10. In Elgar's 1899 hints, he wrote that there was a "dark saying" in the first clue. In the second clue, he wrote that there was a theme that "goes but is not played." Pi is a theme in the "literary" sense in tht it is the idea or concept behind the work. In his third sentence he states that the enigma is "offstage," as Pi certainly is.

11. The 3 sentences from Elgar in 1929 each contain a hint at 22/7, fractional Pi. The first sentence refters to two quavers and two crotchets- a hint at 22. The second sentence refers to observing the "drop of the seventh in the third and four bars" which led me to find the 11 x 2/7 = 22/7. In third sentence he refers to a repeating pattern in bar 7, a hint at /7 of 22/7.

I cannot believe that all of this is just a coincidence, can you? :confused:

AleG 05-29-2010 06:34 PM

I got lost on the first sentence...

jackhammer 05-29-2010 07:15 PM

So you just copied from Wikipedia? An interesting read but what do YOU think?

OctaneHugo 05-29-2010 07:21 PM

Some of it is so incredibly conspiracy theorist it's not even funny, but a lot of it seems pretty sensible.

Interesting stuff.

Dom 05-30-2010 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackhammer (Post 873201)
So you just copied from Wikipedia? An interesting read but what do YOU think?

There is no mention of Pi in the Wikipedia article...

This sounds pretty convincing and kind of makes sense, you might be on to something here.

Nimrod 05-30-2010 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackhammer (Post 873201)
So you just copied from Wikipedia? An interesting read but what do YOU think?

Sorry to confuse you. The Wiki material was provided as background. All of the findings related to Pi are my original research. What do I think? There is no doubt that Elgar's enigma is Pi. There are at least ten FACTS which relate his music and his words to Pi. True, in some ways it is like "The Da Vinci Code" except that this is true and it is offered for free in the interest of exposing the answer to an 111 year old mystery.

The Bullet 05-30-2010 07:30 AM

Awesome research on a great piece. Definate "maybe" vote here... It seems likely, but not definate.

Burning Down 05-30-2010 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackhammer (Post 873201)
So you just copied from Wikipedia? An interesting read but what do YOU think?

A lot of it seems to be copied verbatim from one of the music journal articles that I have - "Elgar's Enigma", written by Dr. J.A. Westrup, first published in the April 1960 issue of the Royal Music Association's bi-annual journal. A copy of the article is available online through an archive (JSTOR), but you won't be able to access it unless you're a student or an employee at a pre-determined school in their database.

Alternatively, you can just copy and paste the first post into Google and most of the first result comes up in bold. Entire sentences, almost. But like I said, you won't be able to access the article if you click on the link.

What you posted is quite interesting though. I really don't know much about Elgar - he was not a topic of discussion in my music history class lectures. Of course I know the Pomp and Circumstance Marches (especially the one that is played at everyone's graduation), and I know that his wife ruled his manuscript paper for him :)

Nimrod 05-30-2010 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down (Post 873474)
A lot of it seems to be copied verbatim from one of the music journal articles that I have - "Elgar's Enigma", written by Dr. J.A. Westrup, first published in the April 1960 issue of the Royal Music Association's bi-annual journal.
Of course I know the Pomp and Circumstance Marches (especially the one that is played at everyone's graduation), and I know that his wife ruled his manuscript paper for him :)

Thanks for reading my post. The background info of what Elgar wrote about the enigma is the only thing that is copied from Wiki. All of the research on the Pi solution is my original research. I think the evidence is overwhelming and I am continually surprised that so few people believe it is correct.

You are correct about the Pomp and Circumstance Marches and that his wife ruled his manuscript paper for him. He was quite an interesting man and I have enjoyed my three years of research on his enigma.:wave:

Burning Down 05-30-2010 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimrod (Post 873484)
Thanks for reading my post. The background info of what Elgar wrote about the enigma is the only thing that is copied from Wiki. All of the research on the Pi solution is my original research. I think the evidence is overwhelming and I am continually surprised that so few people believe it is correct.

You are correct about the Pomp and Circumstance Marches and that his wife ruled his manuscript paper for him. He was quite an interesting man and I have enjoyed my three years of research on his enigma.:wave:

Oh okay. I mistunderstood then. Good work on your research. I probably won't have the chance to study Elgar in school as I've only got 2 years left. I've already taken the course that covered the period in which he was active. But I think my textbook has a good chunk of information on him.

right-track 06-04-2010 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimrod (Post 873464)
All of the findings related to Pi are my original research.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimrod (Post 873484)
Thanks for reading my post. The background info of what Elgar wrote about the enigma is the only thing that is copied from Wiki. All of the research on the Pi solution is my original research. I think the evidence is overwhelming and I am continually surprised that so few people believe it is correct.

Interesting stuff Nimrod.
How long have you been researching this and when did you come to that conclusion?

Nimrod 06-04-2010 08:32 PM

How long have you been researching this and when did you come to that conclusion?

I started researching this in April 2007 when I heard about the enigma on public radio, Performance Today. Fred Child, the host, said gave Elgar's 189 clues and said Elgar was surprised that no one had solved the enigma because "it was so simple and well known."
I said laughingly to myself, "if it is simple, maybe I can do it." Sure enough as I thought about it, I surmised that the EV being about his "circle" of friends could be related to a geometric circle. I have always believed that "music is mathematics made audible." So I figured maybe Pi, a constant in all circles, could be involved some how. Having sung in choirs for many years, I was familiar with scales as do-re-me-fa, or similarly 1-2-3-4. I tried silently singing Pi to myself after I went to bed, and realized that 3-1-4-2 was the beginning of the EV. Eureeka. I was excited. I told a few people and they suggested that I needed more proof, so for the past 3 years I have been researching and writing and trying to get my solution published. Wikipedia requires that the info be from a peer reviewed journal before they will consider adding it. Finally, it has been accepted for publication due out any day. I found a lot of interesting things along the way and it has been one of the most rewarding things I have ever done. (I am a retired chemical engineer.) I'll bet you are sorry you asked. Ha Ha. :) :)

right-track 06-05-2010 02:14 AM

I'm going to be honest with you. My knowledge of classical music is only passing to say the least, outside of a layman's appreciation for Mozart, Holst, Tchaikovsky and Beethoven etc.
I find the lives of the characters of the classical world fascinating though and Elgar was no exception.
And I am aware of his enigma and the mystery that's surrounded it all these years, along with the previously proposed solutions like Rule Britannia.
You make a convincing argument and it looks like you've ticked all the clue boxes too.

I can imagine, if you're right, that your findings could make a big splash amongst classical music fans.
How is this being received?

Nimrod 06-05-2010 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by right-track (Post 877115)
And I am aware of his enigma and the mystery that's surrounded it all these years, along with the previously proposed solutions like Rule Britannia.
You make a convincing argument and it looks like you've ticked all the clue boxes too.

I can imagine, if you're right, that your findings could make a big splash amongst classical music fans.
How is this being received?

Thanks for your positive comments. I do not want to say that I am "right'" however, I believe the facts speak for themselves. You are one of the few people who noticed that Pi fits all of the clues... and a few more.

The big splash, that you and I might expect, is not happening . It has taken a year or more to find someone who would publish my journal article. Several people have been more than a little beligerent, including some in the Elgar Society. Although another member of the Society was very helpful and enthusiastic until some senior "officials" got to him. He can no longer speak to me about it. Crazy, but many people feel threatened by the solution being Pi. They are fearful that removing the mysticism from the EV will hurt their clubs, museums, and general regard for Elgar's music. Personally, I think knowing the solution enhances Elgar's reputation for creativity, and the great music speaks for itself.

Thanks for your interest. :)

right-track 06-05-2010 12:56 PM

Well, I suppose you'll be hard pressed to get anyone to commit to your being right, simply because nobody has any real way of knowing for sure.
Especially as Elgar took the answer with him to his grave.

What I do know about Elgar as an individual, is that he'd be laughing his bollocks off at the stuffiness of these so called "society officials", seeing as he had a sense of humour which these people obviously seem to lack.

Who knows. Given time your thesis may be accepted as theory and become the most likely and popular explanation.
Good luck. :)

Nimrod 06-06-2010 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by right-track (Post 877345)
Well, I suppose you'll be hard pressed to get anyone to commit to your being right, simply because nobody has any real way of knowing for sure.
Especially as Elgar took the answer with him to his grave.

What I do know about Elgar as an individual, is that he'd be laughing his bollocks off at the stuffiness of these so called "society officials", seeing as he had a sense of humour which these people obviously seem to lack.

Who knows. Given time your thesis may be accepted as theory and become the most likely and popular explanation.
Good luck. :)

Well since there is no official body to declare "correctness" of any solution, I doubt if it will ever be proclaimed as "solved". However, I am convinced that Elgar's 1929 comments, made when he was 72 and no one had solved his enigma for 30 years, are the key. He wrote three sentences, each of which has a connection to 22/7, fractional Pi. I just find that to be overwhelming evidence that he wanted people to know that the enigma was Pi.

Thanks again for your comments. I must admit I am impressed with your knowledge of Elgar, his enigma, and human nature. You have made this whole experience much more of a pleasure. I can understand why you have so many "friends" on this forum.:wave::wave::wave:

right-track 06-06-2010 12:16 PM

I only happen to know certain things about him due to the English school I attended.
The forms were named after various noteworthy Brits.
Nelson, Fleming, Livingstone, Wren etc.
Elgar was amongst them too and the school insisted we researched as much about these individuals as was possible.
It's been a habit of mine ever since. The lives of great men can be equally, if not more interesting and impressive than their achievements.

Nimrod 09-29-2010 08:25 PM

I am pleased to report that "Solving Elgar's Enigma" is now printed in the most recent edition of Current Musicology published by Columbia University.

Thanks again for your encouragement!


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