You know it's interesting because I chose Def Leppard's Hysteria album for a reason. I expected it to get treated like mid 80s fluff and dismissed and you did exactly that.
Even though that album contains some of the most complex & intricate recording techniques & a use of technology totally unheard of on rock albums at the time. In fact it's commercial success wasn't guaranteed at all. They'd been away for 4 years which was a lifetime in the 80s when bands put out albums every year. And there was no assurances people would go for this new sound either.

So in Def Leppard's case time certainly did mean effort. The record sold something like 10 million copies. So it's ground breaking and it sold well commercially, which is the music industry is pretty rare.

It basically covers all your criteria for a worthwhile album, and yet it isn't.

You've totally missed my point here. I wasn't saying I think either is a slouch. I was pointing out that they've both released albums that took very little time to write and record but are nevertheless great music. The point being that things are not made great simply by the amount of effort put into them.

I don't think I missed the point. I don't think you're reading between the lines with mine.

My point was time =/= effort. The effort was there, it just wasn't spent entirely in production. Where as Britney Spears is somebody who can casually go to the studio for a few hours here, and there, and have a pop album by the end of the year. The rest of the time she can be spent doing **** all. It's why people like Britney Spears have somewhat limited repertoire on what she can do.

Sure, Zorn may bring somebody like Fred Frith in studio, and hammer out a studio record in one 1 hour take, but that doesn't stop the fact that they're both probably working on three or four projects simultaneously, and neither does it mean that it isn't the culmination of effort put into developing themselves as musicians. Which they are both breaching heavy inspiration from.

The fact they CAN produce that quality of work the way they do comes from the fact they spent the effort developing themselves as musicians. Ask Britney Spears to come into the studio for an hour, and produce something, she'd most likely be completely lost. Where as, Ask her to compose a massive conceptual album, she'd be lost as well. Because, she obviously spends less effort developing herself as a musician.

Here's the thing though: I think you're wrong about how much effort goes into a Britney Spears album. For one thing, something like that is undoubtedly a massive team effort involving very highly trained session musicians, producers, engineers, etc. And when it comes to Britney Spears herself, I have no doubt that she has spent vast amounts of time developing her singing voice and probably spends massive amounts of time in the studio getting the absolutely perfect end product. And yet, nevertheless, at the end of the day her albums still suck.

The point is a ton of effort doesn't make something great, and a lesser amount of effort doesn't make something bad.

Ok, then I could say I can measure things on a combination of focused effort, and controlled creative vision. The production of a Britney Spears CD wouldn't be reliant on a controlled creative vision because of it's necessity to rely on formula, and the focused effort is split among many sources who are skilled but are trained to treat their job like factory work.

Whether it's effort or not, there are still factors that denote quality in comparing works of art.

pop music is consumerist label
 

Enough with the labels. " Music fans" in the know have an obnoxious penchant for throwing around names of artists they consider "relevant" because they mearly like their music. Without knowing squat about where the music comes from and why it sounds like it does. It takes years of examination to arrive at a knowledgable opinion about music. If one was to call "pop" musin Blues, one would get an argument from said "music fans". Consider these elements of our western pop music...syncopation, call and response, the percussive method of performance, and GROOVE. These appropriated elements are all used quite freely in "POP" music. ALL the genetic markers of BLUES. Remember...there is a difference between quotation and thievery.

This is a music forum filled with people well used to all the pros and cons of pop music. Accept that we know where you're coming from and move on, cause we've heard five million and one persons complain about pop music. Talk about the music you like or bitch about music that isn't pop, cause we've heard this.

I like music.

Your username makes this plain. :)

Only a little. lol