What do you think about Susan Boyle? She's one of the less athletic people I can envisage, but can still sing well.

In the recorded music age of course we often don't even know what a singer looks like at all. And there is the assumption here that there is only one voice style that people like, there are all kinds of different vocals which can be appreciated with enough familiarity.

I think a lot of what you guys are saying is very interesting...but you are reaching way too far. None of this could be proven without someone else bringing up a ton of confounding factors. Look for the simplest explanation and then build off that.

Musical ability reflecting sexual fitness is something the modern world has come up with. Most ancient music was developed as a way to communicate with gods. For example...Native Americans and the rain dance. With that, it would be easy for me to say that music started its evolution in the fact that early humans recognized the purity in the patterns that I mentioned and felt it was mystical. Shamans and mystics who could more accurately channel these patterns were deemed...well...I guess more fit than the others. I bet early musical evolution can be traced to that.

Yeh someone did mention sacred music. Our instinct to think beyond our world and to try and explain our existence goes way back millions of years too. The point that we probably took our musical ideas from nature and that aspects of nature were also worshiped probably links together as well.

I anticipated the mention of her :) She was not an ugly teenager. I have thought about the looks-voice thing for years and have yet to come up with an example of a great voice from a naturally ugly person.

Are you sure about that?

http://digitaljournal.com/img/8/7/3/...SusanBoyle.jpg

I saw that before. Certainly not repulsive and with some similarities to a female singer probably considered pretty by many.
Alannah Myles Pic - Image of Alannah Myles - AllStarPics.Net

I'll bite.

What makes lawn mowers harmonious and leaf blowers chaotic? They're both annoying as hell. Because leaf blowers are off and on whereas a lawn mower stays on til its done usually? A jack hammer is harmonious?

I'm sure you could make music involving a jack hammer or a leaf blower or a lawn mower, but I'm not sure about the distinction between the two. Can you clarify?

Cool, writing a book eh? Very nice!

Probably worth noting that the scientific definition of a "tone" is a group of related frequencies and harmonics. The scientific definition of "noise" is a group of unrelated frequencies. More often than not, the human voice is in fact noise, unless we are concentrating on making particular notes and tones. Lawn Mowers etc. can give the impression of creating "harmonious sounds", because our ears are tuned such that we are capable of picking patterns out of chaos, but by and large they are creating noise, not tones.



All this being said, I have been known to sing along with the Microwave.

Are you kidding? :laughing:

Similar nose, similar hair, similar eye shape. The lower face shape is different, but not very different. Alannah Myles has eyes of a prettier color, better lips, and better skin (and a much better body, but I'm only comparing faces). I can take it straight to the horse's mouth, if you like. Of course Susan Boyle looks bad now, but anyone will look bad with enough age and abuse or neglect.

By the way, Sinatra always was kind of unattractive, in my opinion, making him the best counterexample to the no-naturally-ugly-singers rule. But still symmetrical (above the jaw) with some nice features.

I wouldn't go that far! People are people, you know!

The similarities I see are the following:

• Both are women
• Both are caucasian

That's it.

One more:
-Probably neither are registered members of Music Banter.

I don't know. I've suspected you of being Susan Boyle for quite some time.

I did say "probably" in anticipation of you saying that.

I've been known to rock out to the sound the turn signal in the car makes. I'm actually addicted to doing that.

I like to sing along to squeaky doors sometimes. You can vary the pitch by how fast you move it.

I seriously think I could get an opinion from one of them (based on that person's online activity). It's weird if no one else sees the resemblance. By the way, judging from the last names, their ancestors come from the same small part of the world.

Oh man, my gf's car does octaves, it sounds exactly like the start of "My Sharona". The most amusing thing is she doesn't like that song, so it really annoys her every time I start humming it after she turns a corner...

So does your GF. ;)

This is for you starry. This thread is not actually about evolution at all. But, nobody's wrong.

From the man who penned the most recognizable, supposed one-hit wonder of all time. Don McLean. It was written about that painting, and, Van Gogh, supposedly. But, as there is dual meaning to just about everything, it was written as a Love ballad for you. And, a message for me.

In the sense of evolution, music has gone through changes over time. Not at all by chance. It evolves the mental capacity to create, and that is the one thing that every living and supposed non-living thing can accomplish.

Music is a creation, not any biological process or part of a process involving evolutionism. Did it involve nature? Yes, since nature being defined as genre, genus, genius, and gender. It was 'begotten'.

The music is a gift for you, but, the Words were created for something that I have to deal with. Don't believe me, it doesn't matter. I know it, and, it is not a good thing.

And, nothing for anyone to worry about, unless they continue to stand on pedestals, and, berate those who are considered any less intelligent then they are.

Thank all of you for bringing something to my attention. I would suggest planting some Faith in something bigger on the celestial food chain. And, make some peace with that little voice that likes to think negative thoughts, and stop the insults, and the notion of superiority.

I am not calling anyone out. I'm calling you together.

I don't believe any you are not going to face something I have to face. If everything is True, my situation is misery times infinity. You all are redeemed at some point. I am fairly certain of that.

Bless you all, and if you choose to reply, please reply with a video that seems a bit profound. Your favorite songs. I will see things in them that you or even the artist did not.

And, since I've seen many posts now completely off any of the topic, I suppose it would be fair to discuss anything that changes over time.



Evolution - 1615-1625 Somewhere around about then.

"the opening of a book, or, unfolding of something previously folded up"

And, this is thread is debating "Evolutionism", which is a theory. A viewpoint of a process of the metamorphosis of living things. A Biological process to be sure.

I never intended to participate again. But, I sincerely bless tore, and the others who brought my attention to address this again.

I replied to a post with a childish sarcasm. I knew, however, that I was addressing myself, as, I never made it through preschool three times. Let alone fifth grade.

Wisdom is not a two-edge sword. It is a million round sub-machine gun.

Let's all hope that I am being deceived, because next year something is going to happen. It might be just personal for me, and, not the world.

I had a vision in 2002, which amounts to just shy of a minute ago.

I have had some nightmarish dreams all of my life. But, again they may be personal. But, let me share this.

"Judge not to prevent the possibility that you even just might be judged"

You would not want those odds at infinity to one.

I am the Word who dwells in the ineffable Voice. I dwell in undefiled Light and a Thought revealed itself perceptibly through the great Speech of the Mother, although it is a male offspring that supports me as my foundation. And it (the Speech) exists from the beginning in the foundations of the All.
(Trimorphic Protennoia)


Let us hope that this is the case. Because, if it is not, I cannot guarantee this, although I am pretty darn sure I can for you all. Not me. Be nice, and don't take those odds.

Every story ever written involves evolution. Every song, Word, Sound, or anything we see a progression or change.

"Nothing, then, redeems us from this world. But the All which we are, we are saved. We have received salvation from end to end. Let us think in this way! Let us comprehend in this way!" - Dialogue of the Savior

I have created a nice sleepy time place for all of you, as the One you all are. I have to rely on a sub atomic particle of Faith, that it is all but hopeless for me.

Take it. Eat it. It's good knowledge without the bad. Just be nice, and get rid of the nastiness in thought, word, or deed.

It matters not if you understand this. I do. I just want to share what I am going to fight to the death. A message of Love and Peace, and Unity. But, this world has exploded in population numbers over the past 100 years. It's mind-boggling.

Post some videos, and, just give a little thought of prayer to that seemingly weird, or insane dude who just gave you this, can come out victorious.

Peace, Love, and Blessings

My favorite band, as well as the best friend I have in this carcass of ignorance is:

Against Me!



how can you not find everything you need in all of this?
potatoes, rice, and bread, we'll burn it as we take it in.
sing your heart out, sing it like you mean it,
you're gonna sing everything you're thinking,
and you're gonna sing it until they're listening.
cause if it really brings us all together,
i'd say that settles all arguments of difference,
surviving just by questioning,
can you imagine if we all started demanding?
i can play along to every record,
front and back every song,
and every word means as much to me as every word means to you.
they can make an industry selling people the things they want to hear,
if this is worth anything, we will sell it for humility,
it will take us farther than the posture you're fronting.

Sorry, I didn't read any further than this, because I think I would know what the thread is about, and it's definitely about evolution.

Hmmmm.....

You did express concern that you were being off topic, but even a horrible bastard like me can't see how "The Evolution of Music: Accident, or Adaptation?" has anything to do with "Post your favorite songs and I shall review them!!!

Bringing the conversation back to evolution, what do you think about my incoherent suggestion that the creativity of the human brain allowed humans to have an advantage in the evolutionary process because we are more ingenuitive, is exactly the same process that makes us wish to express ourselves with music?

To me music is just a series of coherent patterns that we've been conditioned to associate with our emotions. So I believe music to be more an evolution in communication than anything else. Whether we use maqams or western scales if they fail to form a coherent structure according to their own axioms we find it difficult to relate to them.

Take any western piece of music and you'll get a general consensus of whether it is a sad, happy or haunting piece, but I don't think it makes music an objective study, take a piece of eastern music and people tend to relate to it by it's country of origin rather than an inherit emotion, take an atonal piece to someone who hasn't formed a grasp of atonal music and every atonal piece will sound devoid of any message and just disturbing.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. When I sit down to play some Scott Joplin on the piano or work out some finger picking on the guitar, I'm not remotely interested in whether anyone's heard me or not. I do it because it sounds pleasing to me, and I enjoy it for the sake of that. It could be considered merely releasing endorphins as a natural response from my endocrine system, but I think that if if it were something intrinsic to communication and me assuming it's connection with emotion is purely me having been "conditioned", then somehow I would feel that what I'm doing is more of a message than an "acceleration of celestial experience".

I agree with Rubato, actually, because his/her post supports music as a spandrel of language.

Also, that was really condescending.

I don't know Mighty. Is ingenuitive a Word? Ingenuity? Ingenuous? Ingenious?

What is your definition of 'Evolution'? The Evolutionary 'process' you are speaking of is not the "origin" of the word evolution.

That word 'evolved' through non-accidental adaptation, and, you are discussing a 'theoretical process', Evolutionism.

To satisfy you Mighty, I will present a love song from Mother Earth. It even has lyrics. Tell me if you think Earth is just trying to impress chicks?




My soul is an entangled knot,
Upon a liquid vortex wrought
By Intellect in the Unseen residing,
And thine doth like a convict sit,
With marlinespike untwisting it,
Only to find its knottiness abiding;
Since all the tools for its untying
In four-dimensional space are lying,
Wherein they fancy intersperses
Long avenues of universes,
While Klein and Clifford fill the void
With one finite, unbounded homaloid,
And think the Infinite is now at last destroyed.

James Clerk Maxwell

I asked for the videos of the songs for a reason. A reason of fear like you have never felt. Because, if evolution taught me anything, it taught me the fact that we are here for the long haul, Mighty.

Again, you do not understand things of the scriptures. I do. And, according to the prophesies, it was over as of 1611 AD.

And, messages are delivered through song, and, I need some information that might suggest a positive outcome. As in it is not too late, as every book seems to indicate.

You are eating off a tree here on the world wide spider web of good and evil knowledge.

Here's the deal. It's real as in the illusory perceptive, the reality is within you; as a "carbon copy" image of the beast.

Again, these are things you do not see or understand. I understand them too well. And, understood them exactly 12 days too late.

hmmmm, Is a mental judgment Mighty. I sincerely hope you rid those thoughts. And, not suggest to consider what was done to that 'girl last year'.
Or, do the same thing to 'this guy'.

Because, evolutionism of music is no accident, and if you have to hear going backwards, it will torment you as it is me now.

Don't risk it brother. Just hope I can find the evidence that my so-called very best friend is some type of Antichrist. He knows everything about everything, and has never graduated high school. Or, read a book. But, he showed me how easily to deceive someone who thought he could never be deceived.

I'm asking you for your own sake to believe what I am writing here. I'm 99% sure you do not have to worry about things. I am telling you all the Truth. I wouldn't bank on that one percent of uncertainty.

I never believed in a 'devil'. But, I have to stake my subatomic particle of Faith in something I was certain of prior to Dec 7, 2011. I should be in an asylum right now, mumbling off rubber walls. If you knew what I know, you would be. I guarantee it.

Give yourself some Peace, and show some Love. I am sacrificing the rest of my life on a wing and a prayer.

I am doing this for humanity, not myself, as I know based on evidence, that I am not joining the 'bliss' ride I experienced.

Communication has more than one form, if Someone writes something down in their diary it's not for the amusement of the reader. If you play a Scott Joplin piece he's communicating to you, it's not a requirement that you pass it on to someone else.


*his*

Yeh there's a lot of truth in that, though I doubt either of us are experts when it comes to the psychology of music.

I would say that it is a lot more indirect than you tend to suggest: our association of sounds with feeling probably has a lot more to do with our understanding of emotions in standard communication. So instead of learning from music itself we learn from elsewhere: be it verbal/ visual or whatever.

None of this does anything to belittle the effect of music, of course, everything we encounter is seen in the context of what we are used to/expect.

Thought it might be the case. It was the impression I received from your manner of speaking, but I didn't want to offend you by assuming either way.

Actually, now I re-read what I wrote, I sound really horrible and it does talk down to you in a very mean way. Sorry about that Rubato, I didn't mean to come across like that, I thought you made an astute point.

On the other hand, I agree with Pedestrian that music is indeed intrinsic to language because language is more of a form of expression, and is about communicating that feeling.

I personally don't think that this necessitates that all music must be a form of communication, but definitely a form of expression, if a distinction can be made.

And before steveeden tries to correct me again, "necessitates" is a real word.

Certainly you don't think anyone here understands or cares what you are farting out with these posts. You know what the thread is about. Get to it or I'll start considering you a spammer.

Every time you play piano, you're just expressing your desire to mate with a partner. :laughing:

Just kidding, I completely agree, salami.

I believe that some things are out of reach of the arm of science. I find it to be quite annoying that scientists believe that they have an answer for everything, such arrogance.

Scientists DON'T believe they have an answer for everything. If they did there'd be no such thing as research.

Ehhh, I didn't read that much of it anyway. He seemed to be taking immense pleasure in finding faults with my spelling, so I thought better of reading the rest!

To think I'm soon going to start a mechanical engineering degree!

:laughing:

I never liked the idea that we can narrow everything down to simple biological causes. If there's one thing I ever learned in biology, it's that the human brain is far more complicated than we can currently understand, and to deride music as some simple chemical impulsive urge...

No, I know no one cares what I am farting out. And, that was my last fart on this thread. But, you best know that everything I tried to express has a whole lot to do with evolution, music, accident, and adaptation.

I actually do know what this thread is about. I hope you do not have to discover what it is about the way I discovered. That's all. Just trying to help.

I won't be around here much longer serving up spam. So, relax duga. And, hope I was just blowing off gas. I sure do.

Since, it is a music site. I'll end with a song. It is a primal mating call.



My Chemical Romance.

Peace be unto you.

Freud humour, I like it.

It's not simple at all, but psychology as-is is very divided and unsure, so I doubt we'll ever hear a fully fleshed out answer.

The things is, what else could it be if not a "chemical impulsive urge"?

Woah, hating on the scientists there :P There is quite a large portion of the scientific community that believe that the more they discover about the universe, the more wonderful and fantastic it seems. In my experience, there are two types of people, best described using their reaction to magic tricks:

The first group are those who love magic tricks for the show. They love watching them, they think they're amazing, and they don't want to know how it works - for them, to reveal the "trick" would be to ruin the show.

The second group are your "Scientists". These people love the tricks, but for them, the burning need to understand how it works isn't because they want to ruin it, but because knowing how would just make it better. The why is important to them, because the whys are what make the world wonderful to them.

Anyone who says they are a scientist, and that they have an answer for everything, is not a scientist. One of the fundamental aspects of scientific method is the disregard for anything that does not follow from rigorous logical steps. If anything, we claim to know the "answer" to less, by virtue of the fact that we do not accept divine intervention (for the most part) as an answer.

Music is a language. It's one of the most universal languages, which is part of what makes it so beautiful. No matter what language the song is in, no matter the culture of the composer of the piece, it has a unique ability to transcend cultural boundaries. Did it evolve? I would be inclined to say yes. It seems to fit with... it fits. It's a form of expression which fills what would otherwise be a void in our methods of expression. Did anyone ever have to teach you what different musical pieces meant? It just makes sense.

The next question for me is why. I agree with your rebuttal of the concept of it evolving as a sexual "bird call". It doesn't negate the possibility that is started in that manner, but it's unlikely. If I were to hedge a theory, I would think it was the result of a spontaneous need for expression, inherent in our being - why? Because of the fact that music seems to have independently sprouted up in so many different parts of the world, Just as languages did. From there, it blossomed, because it is so wonderful a method of expression. We have music in our bones, in our blood. That it survived to grow as it did is just as obvious as the reason that language has blossomed. And like language, it has certainly evolved from its simple beginnings.

Can we pin it down to a biological, geneological trait that has survived the ages? I'm... not so certain. There are books that I need to read - This is your Brain on Music has been on my shortlist for some time. I haven't studied it enough, and I wouldn't presume to have the answer ;)

I never liked this idea. I don't think music is a language, I think it's a multitude of languages. Music is an expression of language like speaking, or writing. It can't be serialized to a particular language.

Trust me, if there's one thing that mb has taught me, is that it's definitely not universal.