I'm of the opinion that if you say something ignorant, you'd best be prepared for the consequences.

I used common sense when I first got here and nobody ever jumped on me. It's not difficult.

I know of forums where people like to haze new members. Also, what I'm discussing is no "perk," but the regular contributors set the tone. If they come across negatively to new people, then participation will suffer.

I too have been a member of communities that haze members, to the point where the administration once interfered with the absolute thrashing of someone.

This forum is not even close to that. Not even. We're very good here, we just don't swallow closed-mindedness well.

I think the regular contributors do set the tone here and the tone is this: It's a place to discuss music. Not everyone is going to agree with everyone else all the time, but that's part of fun, not something to be offended by. We banter about music here. It's right in the name.

Sooner or later, music will return back to its roots that once made music so unique.

How? Will all the bands that made it what it is today just suddenly seize to exist?

KI, I was talking music in general. I was not pacific. I am not saying all today's music sucks but a good chunk do stink but underground music is pretty unique though. I am saying as a music as a whole will soon get better. Just not now.

:rofl:

There was no tag team with the comment. Or else I would have directed it to the poster. It was just a coincidence that a few posts had the same idea to what I'd posted. It's not uncommon that posters have a similar idea especially if it makes sense on a specific subject.

I said months ago that that's not my definition of "banter." If the regular members' standard idea of "fun" here isn't fun to others, then this is what we get, few dedicated new members. Some of the others probably think the atmosphere is deliberately hostile, and a few of the most visible usernames fuel that perception. No one is going to quickly, magically change a "close-minded" new member's opinion via criticism. Nobody here can change the facts that some other forums are nasty and that many music fans have thin skins. If nobody here wants to behave differently, then nothing is likely to change. Except me - the atmosphere is eroding my interest in starting new threads.

Maybe if you want change you should lead by example instead of sitting around complaining? Just a thought. I mean, for all your concern about how newbies are treated, I have to say I can't recall ever observing you doing anything to welcome any.

True. But I've only had one known instance of arguing with a new member. I'll check out the new members section, to see if there's anyone I might like.

Maybe you could adopt some noobs and show them the ways of the force? Like what is the art of true banter.

Heh heh. ^ That was a funny video of a song that shows how "innovative" pop music is, given that so many songs use the same 4 chords over and over.

I agree with you that innovation is subjective. Your post points out that people don't necessarily like the sound of "innovative" music. Innovation will not guarantee popularity with everyone. For example, I had vaguely known of Jimmy Hendrix years ago, but I never particularly liked his songs that I happened to hear, so whether he was innovative or not was lost on me.

However, when I heard the following song, thanks to MusicBanter's introducing me to Dubstep, I remember being excited because this style of crunchy music definitely sounded "innovative" and new to me, and I liked it:

Eskamon - "Fine Objects"
@ Pursuingchange: would you consider this music to be innovative?


Eskamon - Fine Objects - YouTube

* * *

I do agree with you that it probably was easier to be innovative in the distant past because there were still many undiscovered avenues. This is true in science, too, and not just in music. Finding an open niche for exploration to make great discoveries or innovative ideas is increasingly difficult when so many niches have already been filled so full.

I know you've been asked before in the thread, but what is the reason you feel truly innovative, groundbreaking music is likely to be well-known so that you don't have to look for it?

I think there are quite a few music innovations that have not become extremely popular (such as the theremin instrument) because not many people have heard them (little promotion), or people didn't like the innovations, or perhaps the innovations are still so new that they haven't had a chance to propagate through music (but may become well-recognized years from now).

An example of a non-popular innovation I can think of is the vocal growl or death growl. Since its origin in the '70s or '80s (or maybe earlier), I don't think songs with death growls were played much on the radio, because I'd never heard a death growl in a song until 3 years ago. Some people absolutely hate growled vocals, yet the first thing I thought when I heard them was, "Wow! This is new to me!" and I was intrigued. Still, most popular music songs use boring, non-innovative clean vocals and rarely involve death growling...although I think it would be great fun to hear Taylor Swift do one!

I guess it was just easier in part because the instrument(s) were so new that all their capabilities hadn't been discovered yet. At this point I don't care much anymore. When I finally realized that fresh ideas and room for innovation had basically dried out in music, I realized that it wasn't just with music, it was with everything else in the world too. Nothing's new anymore. At least nothing new that is captivating or worth-while to me. When I look around, I see a dull world that keeps getting duller. I can't imagine what it's going to be like when I'm 40 or 50 years old. I'm only 21 right now and I'm already burnt out on life. There's just nothing new it seems. Idk. Maybe I'm wrong. All I know is that I'm just bored and ready for there to be some kind of big motivation for me to love music and living again. I'm just not into today's styles much. I think they are really watered-down and I can't get to know the musicians anymore because most of them seem to lack true character and soul. I hope the world DOES end next week lol.

VEGANGELICA,

I know you directed the question to someone else, I hope you don't mind...

It might sound new, the way it is done is relatively new, but it goes back to experimental music from the 60's. (maybe early, but I'm not sure) That peice is somewhere between a sound collage and Glitch (plus a crossfade of hip hop and Electronic j/k) but instead of tone bender manipulating a electronic device as in Glitch, it is a bunch of sample on a computer. And when you think about it, having samples spliced together goes back to the 60's with sound collage, but now it's done with soft ware, not with tape. An example of a sound collage would be Number Nine by The Beatles. (I'm not saying that The Beatles invented Glitch-Hop but I'm sure someone is going to think that.) John must of known of some example of sound collages and wanted to do his own experimental peice on the White album.

The "music" itself might be new or relatively new. But the ideas are old, you'll find a lot of sampling in hip hop, what evolved are the tools and sounds. Some of those sounds relatively new, like the synth bass sample from dub step, or maybe it's a synth bass sample from form Dave Smith synth or something e.g. an anaolgue bass-synth.

I'm not familiar with the community here, I'm new too, but maybe getting some good musical suggestions from some of the members around here might help with your current musical pessimism :)

Why would it matter if you like them? I thought your whole point was that even the most hostile of newbies should be treated with kid gloves.

No. Legitimately hostile new members (aka trolls) should be ejected, and only moderators have anything close to any obligation to greet new members. My point is don't be needlessly hostile to new people.

I agree. In fact, I guess I'm less strict than you here, because I think before we simply "eject" a hostile new member they should be told that they're doing something wrong and given the opportunity to change their behavior.

On a side note, I think your comment about greeting new members is pretty far off the mark. Why should only mods have an obligation to greet new members? If you care about the community here, you should take the time to make sure new members feel welcome.

Because it's an "obligation." It would be nice if other people greet legitimate new members, but that comes down to personality. If they post music threads that interest others, they'll get de facto greetings, hopefully minus hostile-seeming arguments.

:confused:

Because no one else is a virtual employee. Standard forum practice is that non-moderators only have restrictions on their behavior, not obligations (aka duties).

There is no obligation for mods to greet newbies here, quit making up bull****. Even the most patient of mods would get tired of greeting all the one and done posters that show up, but usually at least one mod shows up to welcome them.

Mods aren't "virtual employees". We're not paid. We have no contact with owners of the site. We're just members who like the place enough to volunteer to delete spam and enforce the rules.

The rules of this website, and the rules of how we moderate are decided upon by us as a group, within the confines of common sense.

Every so often I'll greet a new member in the "Community Center: Introductions" section. But I really don't do it often, not evryone stays. The time members are active on MB varies from days, to weeks, to months, or years. And some of the people who do have an interesting introduction about themselve don't always stay. It more likely the hostile new members (aka trolls) are here until they get it out of their system or are shown the emergency exit door aka banned.

Music will never stop evolving, just because you(or I or anybody else) doesn't like how it evolves doesn't mean it stopped evolving. Some pics of new music that gives me hope :)

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...38/133/963.png

http://thatgrapejuice.net/wp-content...upid-hoe-1.jpg

Okay, you're a Limp Bizkit fan and you believe swag is the future of music.

You're trolling us.

It seems like the argument is that new members are extra sensitive to initial remarks and because of that, extra compassion should be given by existing members. Is that essentially it?

Yes, that's the argument. Also, I didn't say it is official policy for moderators here to welcome new members, but it might as well be - whoever is best suited for it, not every mod doing it. To split hairs, other than maybe the admin, moderators usually are volunteers, but volunteers essentially are unpaid employees and have employee obligations.

I think the mods just totally disagree with what those obligations are. I can see where you are coming from but the whole line between being responsible for others is blurred if in many ways mods are using the forum much like a usual member. It isn't just their job to regulate their forum as they are participating members trying to enjoy the forum just like anyone else. I think considering the consistent opinions shown by the mods you might just have to accept that they have have different perspective.

"employee obligations" :offtopic:
I'm not say it should be the official policy for the moderators, but besides your suggestion of welcoming new members they should also keep the discussions on track. I understand how this off topic discussion evolved, but what happen to talking about the evolution of music? I've been on froums that would in no way tolerate off topic discussion or questioning the actions of mods. This site seems a lot more laid back in that respect. You should be happy about that and switch back to the topic.

Yes, I appreciate that we can even have this discussion. I've been waiting for it to be spun off into a different thread, where we can get into the issue about moderators being regular participants vs. being mods.

I've been thinking about your thread and particularly about whether the electric guitar is the dead-end culmination of popular instrument evolution.

When I look at the evolution (change or development) of popular instruments used in music throughout history, such as the recorder (block flute), harmonica, piano, accordion, lute, acoustic guitar, and electric guitar, I conclude that improving on the electric guitar as a popular instrument may indeed be very difficult, unless human society or humans change drastically.

This means I wouldn't expect many additional, more popular instruments to be developed, because the electric guitar matches the Ideal Qualities of a Popular Instrument (an instrument intended for mass use in creating popular music) so well and much better than any other instrument people have invented:

* * *

Qualities of the Ideal Popular Music Instrument:

1. Uses only the hands to play, freeing the mouth for singing (the recorder and harmonica fail in this regard, but the guitar excels).
2. Easy to learn to play (contrast this with the violin, harp, and piano, which I think are much harder to learn to play well compared to the guitar because they require complex motions from both hands).
3. Cheap to construct (constrast a guitar with the piano).
4. Portable (an accordion was an attempt to make the piano a portable instrument, but it is limited in the sounds it can make; a guitar is lightweight and not too big).
5. Allows great versatility of sound (an electric guitar creates a far greater range of sound than any of the other vibrating instruments).

* * *

^ Unless these criteria change, I think creating a more popular instrument than the electric guitar will be difficult and unlikely, because the electric guitar fulfills them so well!

The evolution of the electric guitar parallels biological evolution in which natural selection sometimes results in a species that fits its unchanging environmental conditions well enough that the species can survive for millions of years with few genetic changes being propagated throughout the population over time. When the environment doesn't change, then there is no selection pressure to encourage the propagation of mutants that happen to exist in the population.

Similarly, guitars have existed for over 3,000 years relatively unchanged, a testament to their success in fulfilling criteria for good popular instruments. Unless humans or culture changes drastically, there is no impetus for the evolution of a new popular music instrument. New instruments *are* being developed, but unless the criteria for a popular instrument change, these new-fangled instruments won't become popular.

Conclusion: the evolution of popular musical instruments leading to the massively popular electric guitar *has* become stagnant and is likely to remain so, because creating an instrument that better matches the criteria for the ideal popular instrument is difficult.

When we humans have run out of fossil fuels in 1,000 years, we may see large changes in human society and energy consumption. Then I would expect such environmental changes to impact the evolution of instruments, because there will be different selection pressures.

For example, if people no longer could use electricity, there would be no electric guitar. Alternatively, if nuclear radioactive waste buildup over the next million years leads to a higher frequency of genetic mutations in people, individuals with altered sensory and perception systems might be more successful at procreating, causing the human population to include many people with different preferences in music such that instruments and music could change quite a bit. We're talking hundreds of thousands of years here, though! :D

My guess about the future of music is that popular music will continue the trend of being heavily guitar-based while blending sounds from different countries' music traditions, especially as developing nations become wealthier and Western nations lose more economic and cultural power.

* * * * *

Thanks, Neapolitan, for sharing the evolutionary pathway of the sounds I heard in my favorite "Fine Objects" song by Eskamon. I had not known about their origins. I appreciate your sharing! :beer:

* * * * *

Yes, I agree with you that the argument raised in this thread is essentially that existing members should be especially polite to new members, who are more likely than established members to feel sensitive to possible heckling and rebuffed by comments that seem or are rude.

The bigger issue, I feel, is how MusicBanter members and mods want to uphold The First Rule of our community, especially when someone breaks it:

• While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, trolling, purposeless inflammatory posts or members deliberately provoking another member into committing any of these acts.

I feel that the best way to reply to rudeness is by being polite, since rude replies by members and mods violate the very rule that is supposed to be protected, encourage more rudeness, and discourage open sharing of opinions about music.

I think most of us here want MB to consistently encourage and facilitate the open sharing of opinions about music, but we may disagree on how best to achieve that goal.

I already responded to this earlier in the thread but here it is again for your benefit.