Why are Classical musicians so pretentious?
 

I'm a Classical musician, but the thing is, I never considered Classical music as the be all and end all of the art form, whereas a lot of other Classical musicians I've met seem to. All the music schools are now teaching avant-garde art music that doesn't make any of its graduates a buck. All the students are embarassed to write a major chord due to fear of lack of originality. It's preposterous.

I have posted a few pretty convetionally written yet original pieces on a site of mainly Classical musicians and all of them were met with negativity, such as "this sounds just like Hans Zimmer and I hate Zimmer, he's an untalented hack", or I would get long, long, LONG reviews that over analyze every note and state how they are not up to their artistic standards.

What do you guys feel about this. I just get so frustrated that so many Classically trained musicians have their heads up their butts.

I sometimes feel the same way. I hate when they act superior to people who listen to popular music like Rock, Blues, Pop, Metal, etc.

I'm not sure I'd agree that "all" music schools are like that Jason. I didn't major in music in college (didn't care to go into the family business), but I've got a pretty strong classical background and I knew a lot of the students and faculty of the music department quite well. Not only was there an active jazz studies program, but many of the music majors played gigs and such to support themselves, so being a classical snob so to speak wasn't really a luxury they could afford.

Wherever it is that you're "posting" your work, I'd stay away from there. Sounds like a bunch of A-holes trying to impress everyone with their "superior knowledge." And if the school is really that bad you might want to consider a change. I don't think I could stomach an environment like that.

Is it only classical musicians that are pretentious? Learning classical music is actually a huge part of being able to play top notch, so if anything, they deserve to be pretentious. A lot of people aren't classically trained.

Don't worry about a small group of people who think that their music is far superior to what you're creating. In fact, try to get your works on a better known platform like Soundcloud or Reverbnation where you might get a more supportive response. Unless if one creates for an Elitist audience, people who make music should try to get their work out to everyone - I think that Classical was the Pop and Prog of it's day to be honest, depending on what is created and that's a compliment (There's a lot of "Hooks" in very well known pieces and Extended Epics in Symphonies...cheesy comparison, maybe, but just trying to connect something). It seems that they want stuff that's the Music equivalent of "Preaching to the converted", and that's a blind alley.

Now to get back to the thread question...
To tell you the truth, Elitists are in almost every kind of music not just Classical, but it seems that I feel in that area of music some of those who have critical voices are pretentious (as if they think they were born to be teachers and know it all) just because they feel that their skills are worthy of riding a high horse that's too high to climb down from.

There's music sites that cater to all genres that really suck. I was at one that catered to folk and I'd have to say it's the worst forum on the internet. You post something and the response from half the people is: "You think you're smarter than everyone else? Well, I already knew all this 30 years ago so you're not so smart!" or "As soon as I saw the title I knew it was one of yours and all I could think was 'Oh god, here we go again!'" Of course they can't and don't explain why they then had to log on and read the whole thing and leave comments if they so hate everything you post.

Most people who come there don't stay very long and I just couldn't stand it anymore and had to leave. It became unbearable. And this was a forum of people in their 60s and 70s with grandchildren and they act like bratty 13 year olds. In fact, I've been in forums with a lot of teens who were far more polite and knowledgeable that that bunch of jokers.

So, it just depends on the forum. It's not the genre, it's that the forum attracts certain types and then they hang around and chase off everyone not like themselves. You try to stay thinking you won't let these a-ssholes chase you off but then one day you log in and realize it's just the same stupid s-hit from the same stupid people and what's the point? And you leave.

You can't post your music here yet, but if you send me a PM I'd be happy to review it for you. I like classical though I have no musical training, so perhaps an unbiased ear might give you better or more honest feedback?

Just offering: I keep a music journal here and I could feature it on that. Or not. Whatever you want.

Anyway, I agree with everyone else: don't listen to people who just want to prove how superior they are. They're in every field, and in every field they have one common trait: they love to tear down rather than build. So much easier.

yo, here's my question. why don't classic musicians ever collaborate with normal artists? could make for some interesting and groundbreaking music.

Happens all the time MC. Classical cellist Yo yo Ma has practically made a career of it.

I have an Ofra Harnoy CD of Beatle songs.

And you know all those string sections you hear on all those old Motown hits--that's the DSO (Detroit Symphony Orchestra)

Agree.

I think to classical fans its an obscure genre (that only an elite is interested in) but it technically really isnt. It is a very popular genre and style of music.

There is alot that goes into the training of classical musicians and even learning about the music. However, I dont think that means one is more superior just because they are trained in that area. I think there is alot that we all can learn from each other as music listeners, musicians, etc.

i kinda agree it comes with the territory but no they don't

they don't need to be pretentious about it

just because i have more knowledge than you on a certain field it doesn't mean i have to shove it down your throath like an elitist assh*le

and even worst, in this bullsh*t search for originality and supremacy most of these ppl become contrarians so even when you do agree with them it doesn't matter cause they'll pick some minor detaitl to oppose and shove their so called "originality" in there to stand out

Wow. I'm sorry but that's really really cynical, dude. :(

i know but i have seen it happen one too many times not with just classical music but also with literature but ive also seen great musicians who actually humble themselves down when they are really good

No wonder classical music to many is such a joke.

Who thinks that? Most people on this forum don't think classical music is a joke. They may not listen to it but they also don't think it's a joke, lol.

While you're not necessarily wrong, I think you're confusing "Pretentious" with "Egotistical" or "Narcissistic".

To be pretentious about your chosen artform is to have, essentially, a delusion that results in justifying that whole artform as being far more important and deep than it actually is.

A great number of metal or jazz players don't have that problem where they claim their own artform to be the ultimate form of music. They're often wildly derisive of other acts within the same genre for no better reason than personal aesthetic judgements, or they'll insist on challenging a perception that puts them into the same group as another act they dislike.

The problem you're describing is simple egotism, where that person feels they, personally, deserver greater spotlight or acclaim than they actually do. That's somewhat different to being simply pretentious.


Regardless, the answer to this entire thread is simple - Institutions provide an education, context, and guidance on the importance of classical music, that is largely shared between all students and institutions as the result of research and analysis. This means they become very quickly aware of the greats and why they were great within that field.

They are however unlikely to be so aware of greats within the comparitively recent time (last 100 years worth) of popular music, and even if they are, they're comparing those recent greats to artists with hundreds of years of acknowledged importance. To many classical musicians, no modern day musician can possibly claim the same importance as a Bach or a Beethoven until they've been dead long enough that, by rights, their music should be long forgotten, yet if they were truly that important their music would last, like Bach's, hundreds of years after death.

Not to mention, the recent canon of popular metal or jazz musicians, or even popular musicians as a whole, is fiercely contested even by devout aficionados of those genres. Nobody can contest Bach as a great composer. It's comparitively easy to contest Metallica as an important rock band, and that means there's simply much less to support anyone who tries to be pretentious about heavy metal music - there's no safety net of hundreds of years of scholarly thinking and analysis, to fall back on to prove the importance of metal in the grand scheme of artistic endeavour.

Because the nature of being pretentious is in your education, you've been told a certain way of doing things, so you think you know better, or that your way is more sophisticated. It may or may not actually be pretentious, I personally don't think musicians can be pretentious unless they're like Marilyn Manson and trying to pass themselves off as being an artistic statement in the form of ****ty pop metal, but I think that explains why you would call a classical musician pretentious.

I have meet fans of each and for some they exist in a bubble where all they listen to is that one genre or type of music and disregard the rest. Out of them some couldn't be bothered while others look down on all other forms of music that is not their own, the latter seems pretentious imo. Whether a particular musician of a genre is the same is up to the individual, it has nothing to do with how much education or whether fans can say something without contention. Maybe on stage a Metal band acts more overtly pretentious because they are putting on a show, and a orchestra might not seem so and they are sitting in tuxedos a, but that doesn't attest to how they act irl. I heard that when Randy Rhoads went to audition for Ozzy he came in with a small practice amp, while every other guitar player came in with Marshall stacks and could play a lick. To me Randy seems so unpretentious at that moment. James Hetfield on the other-hand seems kinda pretentious imho. Like the time he ignore the produce because he was lingering on a chord for too long, and he couldn't handle criticism and was all bent out of shape cause of it. And another thing I like to add, if James Hayfield was J.S. Bach's older brother Hatfield would have sued Bach for copying his manuscripts by candlelight in the middle of the night.

You know who I think are pretentious? Opeth.