Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie (Post 1381124)

What a lazy answer! ;)

You've studied music, you can put my mind at ease, and you don't. My my...

Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie (Post 1381113)

This is something I regularly ponder, especially when I'm on psychedelics.

Music is sound. Sound is waves. But what makes a tune a tune and not just noise? How is it that the whole species agrees (knows even) when something is out of tune, when something is just noise?

I haven't studied music so maybe I'm being stupid and the answer is obvious.

Anyone?

Originally Posted by Silenzio (Post 1381167)

A Tune is "a succession of musical sounds forming an air or melody, with or without the harmony accompanying it."
According to that definition, it's just the main melody of music, without any accompanying instruments.

The definition for noise is "a nonharmonious or discordant group of sounds."
Actually, noise, if it's not planned, will be just noise and no music.
Jazz artists for example don't write sheet-music mostly, but think ahead right in the moment of playing.
I would say noise is sound that happens without a purpose, because sometimes discordant sounds are wanted in music.

Originally Posted by Werda (Post 1381170)

All about the hook IMO!

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1381152)

I would say that it's in the eye of the creator rather than that of the beholder to decide whether or not something is music. When something's released and people disregard it as "noise" and not music are closeminded, in my opinion. Sure, it may be bad in your eyes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't qualify as music.

Also, the idea of something being in and out of tune is relative to what music you grow up on. The quarter step usage in Indian music would be considered quite out of tune in regards to Western music, for example. Some people are even intentionally out of tune, it can aid in whatever they're trying to convey be it eeriness, melancholy, or disorientation. Take Jandek for example


There's also the idea that music can exist without a performer, which can be hard for some to wrap their head around. John Cage discusses it well

Originally Posted by Rjinn (Post 1381223)

Well of course we can distinguish noise from music. You hear drilling from a construction site that's noise. You hear paper flapping in the air that's noise. You hear chalk grinding on the black board that's noise. But when you hear intentional noisy sounds that are put together with some sort of meaning, convey something or tell a story, well that's art. And music is pretty much sound art.

Originally Posted by Werda (Post 1381170)

All about the hook IMO!

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1381239)

In some forms of music, sure, but certainly not in all music.

Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1381234)

Bob Dylan doesn't just produce random noise though and tries to pass it off as music.

Originally Posted by Burning Down (Post 1381122)

I have studied this through music cognition work and research projects, and the simplest explanation is that music is just organized noise. I'd go into more detail but I'm on my phone!

Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie (Post 1381222)

Good John Cage video, very interesting.

I wanna point out I wasn't talking about music being good or bad. I've never heard a released piece of music and thought to myself 'that's not music'. Whether I hear music I like or music I don't like, I identify it as music and I think we all do. And it's precisely that which I find strange - that the whole human species has an inbuilt music detector.

I'll give you an example. I spent some time with my 20 month old niece recently and one day, on hearing Mumford and Sons on the radio, she broke into dance. Nobody showed her how to dance, nobody encouraged her to dance, I doubt she has any idea what music is or what a tune is or what the notion of being in tune means. But the point is she didn't dance earlier in the day to the sound of rainfall, or the sound of the soup bubbling in the pan, or the sound of the vacuum cleaner, or the sound of clanging plates and dishes during the washing up. She only reacted to the music, not to the hundreds of other noises she encountered. It was as if she had an innate ability, knowledge even, to distinguish music from noise and appreciate it. And I think we all do.

Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie (Post 1381274)

So would you consider, say, the sound of a river trickling over rocks, or the sound of the wind through a grove of trees in their natural environment (ie you're there listening to it live) as music? Or does it only become music to you when someone records it?

Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie (Post 1381274)

So would you consider, say, the sound of a river trickling over rocks, or the sound of the wind through a grove of trees in their natural environment (ie you're there listening to it live) as music? Or does it only become music to you when someone records it?

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1381318)

I was thinking of an example where the audience may not identify the sounds as music but the artist does. I'm not sure about what exactly differentiates music from noise anymore, a lot of avant-garde artists have bridged the gap I think. I think that your niece may have already known what music was by being familiar with music by having heard it before, and possibly seeing her mother dancing? Do you think that your niece would have danced to something like this or even call it music?


But I'm sure as an adult, she may hear this as we would and call it ****e or great music. So I guess what I'm saying is our intellect tells us, but it feels natural since we've been exposed to it for all of our lives. I'm not sure about the mechanics of the brain, but I'm sure that there is also a nature element to this situation that coincides with nurture.



Well, I think that lies more in opinion than fact because someone with a liberal definition of music would say yes and a conventional listener would say no (supposedly). I personally would say that it's on a case by case basis, tbh. There will be times where I listen to the world from a musical perspective and at surprised at how well the sounds of wherever I am mesh together (in most cases I'm doing this on campus, so there's a lot going on). There's this hallway at my school that makes footsteps sound like an electronic bass drum that I enjoy quite a bit, and I definitely would call it music. Recording the sounds does make it easier for someone to decifer it, but I don't think it invalidates that it exists without recording it. One reason for this could be that most people listen to their world more passively than actively, because if you don't intentionally listen for something how are you going to find it?

Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie (Post 1381329)

I agree, as you allude to, that as we are introduced to and experience music in our life, it influences and shapes what we define personally as music. But I also feel that before we are exposed to music, there's something inside of us lying dormant waiting to react to it, that acknowledges it, even if it's only on a very basic level.

Originally Posted by Rjinn (Post 1381320)

No, that's nature. Noise music is still planned. I'd consider it music if the artist created the motion of the noise themselves, or edit it to be apart of the music piece that satisfies some sort of musical agenda. It still has to take direction to what the music piece is actually about. I'm not talking about empty noises, I'm talking about the culture around noise music production. I wouldn't just record what was going on in the atmosphere and call it music. But hey, even then there might be something there that I don't hear, it's really subjective.

Originally Posted by Ninetales (Post 1381536)

is this music?

Originally Posted by Rjinn (Post 1381645)

That's abstract music. It flows, has a few layers, a certain mood and imagination. Check.

Originally Posted by Ninetales (Post 1381692)

Also hmm another question, directed to anyone. Is 4'33" music?

Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1381699)

lol is that the track that is just silence?

Originally Posted by Ninetales (Post 1381692)

I only ask because it's just wind hitting telegraph wires. Alan Lamb set it up but didnt know what the final result was going to be.

(I do agree though; it's music)

Also hmm another question, directed to anyone. Is 4'33" music?

Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1381699)

lol is that the track that is just silence?

Originally Posted by Ninetales (Post 1381692)

Also hmm another question, directed to anyone. Is 4'33" music?