effectively, yes, what's your point? Why dedicate a thread to making the separation between black and white musicians? Does it affect the music? :usehead:

My point is Rap is punk.

^shut the **** up

the grassroots, D.I.Y element certainly resembles punk, yes, but has nothing in common with it musically - the way it's produced or the culture that sprung up around it, it owes nothing to three-chord guitar-led hardcore songs whatsoever.

I'm not talking about music but the message of the music.

It doesn't effect the music, but I think that different groups of people have different takes on things.

Aesop Rock is PUNX!

exactly!

I agree completely with what you're saying. Punk is a genre that can be perceived both as a musical style and as a social or political ideology. I think that hip-hop in generally started out with a lot of parallels to punk, but grew into something that has deviated pretty far from that ideal. I have even in previous threads along time ago, described "outlaw country"- Johnny cash and Waylon Jennings for example, as being intrinsically punk rock for their non-comformity to social ideals and maverick dedication to what they perceived as higher purposes. Jazz, a genre invented by African Americans, in my opinion was the original punk if you look at it in its historical context. It was considered crude abrasive and a generally unaccepted musical style by the political and religious hierarchy of that period. I won't even get into the history of reggae. Ironically, if one looks at modern and post modern music in general, it can be seen that blacks have almost always been at the forefront of using music as an agent of rebellion and social change, which, to me, is the core essence of what punk is, or should be.

Dag Nasty had a black singer

Yeah, but Dag Nasty sucks. Just kidding, they're alright. Minority of one is awesome!