Music Banter

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-   -   Today's Rap, 90's, or 80's Rap (https://www.musicbanter.com/rap-hip-hop/50500-todays-rap-90s-80s-rap.html)

TheBig3 07-19-2010 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 902280)
Haha. I don't think he's getting boring, I think he's staying as boring as he's always been.

We can argue quality all day, but Blueprint 3 had nothing like "H to the Izzo" on it which is when I couldn't stand him. I think he's gotten really good lately. Even Kingdom Come had some great songs on it.

Quote:

I guess I agree that longevity is less common in hip-hop to a certain extent but there are some longtimers that are still pretty big. The Roots are another one that come to mind.
The Roots are a tough sell though because you never hear them in most rap outfits. Their off on their own in Indie land. You might get them at younger, savvier rap venues like Rock the Bells, but **** like Summer Jam likely won't feature them.


Quote:

Yeah, that's the kind of hip-hop I listen to but I keep thinking there has to be something else out there that's as good and new.
A movement will come. How long did we endure post-grunge before we were saved. Give it time, I say.

Janszoon 07-19-2010 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibber (Post 902265)
In my opinion the best stuff right now is from artists who came out and established themselves in the 90's and are continuing to produce new stuff today. I agree with Janszoon in that a lot of the stuff from artists who really only came out in the 00's sounds very similar and isn't all that inspired. The song that Big3 posted, while not bad, was just too pop-y for me. Too many artists have experimented with the same sounds and influences before, and it's just nothing new or innovative. Having said that, there are a few artists who really only came into their own in the 00's that I continually follow and really enjoy.

DL incognito (started 1998, this song from 2008 album)


YouTube - DL Incognito - Out Of The Box

Zion I (started first album in 2000)


YouTube - Zion I -"Fingerpaint"


YouTube - Zion I-Mind Blow

EDIT: youtube videos don't work when I try to embed them (I think because of the ban here). I don't have a little box to check in the advanced mode, what SHOULD be the "wrap youtube tags" box is just a question mark for me, and typing them out myself doesn't work either.

That DL incognito song sounds pretty good! I'll have to check out some more.

I own one album by Zion I that's a collaboration they did with the Grouch. It's decent but I wasn't really blown away by it. Some of it, unfortunately, indulges in some of the worst aspects of pop-rap. Is there any other album by them that you'd recommend?

Janszoon 07-19-2010 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog (Post 902295)
We can argue quality all day, but Blueprint 3 had nothing like "H to the Izzo" on it which is when I couldn't stand him. I think he's gotten really good lately. Even Kingdom Come had some great songs on it.

See, I never heard a Jay-Z song, old or new, that doesn't bore the pants off me and he's someone I've given a lot of chances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog (Post 902295)
A movement will come. How long did we endure post-grunge before we were saved. Give it time, I say.

Thing is I never felt like I was enduring post-grunge because there was so much other rock music at the time that was really, really good. That's why I figure there must be some terrific new hip-hop that I just haven't found yet.

TheBig3 07-19-2010 09:52 AM

Well the business models are pretty different. Underground, trying-to-make-it rappers still went to labels.

No ones taking risks anymore.

midnight rain 07-19-2010 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 902296)
That DL incognito song sounds pretty good! I'll have to check out some more.

I own one album by Zion I that's a collaboration they did with the Grouch. It's decent but I wasn't really blown away by it. Some of it, unfortunately, indulges in some of the worst aspects of pop-rap. Is there any other album by them that you'd recommend?

You heard the latest by Antipop Consortium? You might like it:


Janszoon 07-19-2010 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 902309)
You heard the latest by Antipop Consortium? You might like it:


Not bad. How's the rest of the album?

midnight rain 07-19-2010 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 902315)
Not bad. How's the rest of the album?

I dig it.




nolvorite 07-19-2010 10:40 AM

early 90's hip hop > late 90's hip hop

Janszoon 07-19-2010 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolvorite (Post 902330)
early 90's hip hop > late 90's hip hop

early 90's hip hop = late 90's hip hop

CanwllCorfe 07-19-2010 02:04 PM

I'm gonna go with the 90s. I loved the 90s.

nolvorite 07-19-2010 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 902334)
early 90's hip hop = late 90's hip hop

after 2pac died it wasn't the same

James 07-19-2010 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolvorite (Post 902526)
after 2pac died it wasn't the same

Lol, no.

nolvorite 07-19-2010 05:17 PM

oh yes

Janszoon 07-19-2010 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolvorite (Post 902526)
after 2pac died it wasn't the same

According to your profile you were 5 months old when 2Pac died. You'll forgive me if I don't put a lot of weight in your assessment of this one.

nolvorite 07-19-2010 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 902685)
According to your profile you were 5 months old when 2Pac died. You'll forgive me if I don't put a lot of weight in your assessment of this one.

I just say what everybody else says

Janszoon 07-19-2010 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolvorite (Post 902723)
I just say what everybody else says

Well, whoever this "everybody else" is, they're wrong.

cupkayke 07-19-2010 11:19 PM

I assume those also born five months after Tupac died, or maybe they were three when California Love was released?

Either way it's hard to say. I'm sure something great has come from each decade. I've been listening to A Tribe Called Quest and these guys were pretty talented. I'd say 90s but admittedly I haven't listened to anything from the 80s (that I can remember being from there) aside from 3 Feet High and Rising. Which, I admit again, I have not listened to thoroughly or enjoy very much to want to.

midnight rain 07-19-2010 11:20 PM

He's right, rap wasn't the same. Was it worse? Not necessarily, though the state of rap did definitely change after 2Pac/Biggie's premature deaths. And for the record, I prefer 90's rap pre-2pac death.

Janszoon 07-20-2010 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 902753)
He's right, rap wasn't the same. Was it worse? Not necessarily, though the state of rap did definitely change after 2Pac/Biggie's premature deaths. And for the record, I prefer 90's rap pre-2pac death.

Aren't you another one who would have been too young to remember?

It's true that hip-hop evolved over the course of the 90s, just like it has over the 80s and the 00s, but Tupac's death wasn't some big turning point that caused things to change overnight. There was some great rap music, and some utter garbage, released both in the early 90s and the late 90s.

TheBig3 07-20-2010 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janszoon (Post 902875)
aren't you another one who would have been too young to remember?

It's true that hip-hop evolved over the course of the 90s, just like it has over the 80s and the 00s, but tupac's death wasn't some big turning point that caused things to change overnight. there was some great rap music, and some utter garbage, released both in the early 90s and the late 90s.

you leave skee-lo out of this!

midnight rain 07-20-2010 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 902875)
Aren't you another one who would have been too young to remember?

It's true that hip-hop evolved over the course of the 90s, just like it has over the 80s and the 00s, but Tupac's death wasn't some big turning point that caused things to change overnight. There was some great rap music, and some utter garbage, released both in the early 90s and the late 90s.

Yeah I wasn't very old when it happened, but I didn't need to be either as the historical record of the time is captured in the music. 2Pac and Biggie's death lead to the end of the whole east coast-west coast battle that had spurred rap artists on to top each other. It also left west coast rap dormant for many years after 2Pac's death and the scene really hasn't been the same since. You also saw southern rap become more prominent and gangsta rap became more mainstream and popular.

Things didn't change overnight, but the deaths of two of the biggest forces in rap definitely had an impact on the scene. And yes, I agree that their was good rap both before and after 2Pac's death.

Janszoon 07-20-2010 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 902981)
Yeah I wasn't very old when it happened, but I didn't need to be either as the historical record of the time is captured in the music. 2Pac and Biggie's death lead to the end of the whole east coast-west coast battle that had spurred rap artists on to top each other. It also left west coast rap dormant for many years after 2Pac's death and the scene really hasn't been the same since. You also saw southern rap become more prominent and gangsta rap became more mainstream and popular.

Things didn't change overnight, but the deaths of two of the biggest forces in rap definitely had an impact on the scene. And yes, I agree that their was good rap both before and after 2Pac's death.

See, I think if you had been there and aware of music at the time you would have a pretty different take on it, as I do. You speak as if the scene 2Pac was a part of was the totality of hip-hop at the time but it wasn't, not even close. Things weren't as simple and linear as reading about them after the fact would have you believe. And frankly west coast rap continued to be huge throughout the late 90s so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it was somehow dormant.

midnight rain 07-20-2010 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 902991)
See, I think if you had been there and aware of music at the time you would have a pretty different take on it, as I do. You speak as if the scene 2Pac was a part of was the totality of hip-hop at the time but it wasn't, not even close. Things weren't as simple and linear as reading about them after the fact would have you believe. And frankly west coast rap continued to be huge throughout the late 90s so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it was somehow dormant.

I'm not saying it was the totality, just no doubt a large part of it (and one of the most well-remembered parts of 90's rap). From what I've heard west coast rap declined after 2Pac's death, though I may be wrong. What are some of the notable west coast rappers after 2Pac's death?

I'm not saying 2Pac was everything hip hop, just he was an important part to it's progression in the 90's and his death changed that progression.

Janszoon 07-20-2010 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903005)
I'm not saying it was the totality, just no doubt a large part of it (and one of the most well-remembered parts of 90's rap). From what I've heard west coast rap declined after 2Pac's death, though I may be wrong. What are some of the notable west coast rappers after 2Pac's death?

I'm not sure how to respond to this because I'm not just talking about rappers, I'm talking about the style of music in general. West coast bigshots like Dre and Snoop continued to be big into the late 90s. Meanwhile the hip-hop coming out of the west coast diversified to include classic weirdness from the likes of Dan the Automator and Anticon. Note that I'm not saying that I think there was more going on with the west coast during this time than the east, quite the opposite actually. I'd argue that the east had more going on all the way from the beginning to the end of the 90s.

midnight rain 07-20-2010 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 903013)
I'm not sure how to respond to this because I'm not just talking about rappers, I'm talking about the style of music in general. West coast bigshots like Dre and Snoop continued to be big into the late 90s. Meanwhile the hip-hop coming out of the west coast diversified to include classic weirdness from the likes of Dan the Automator and Anticon. Note that I'm not saying that I think there was more going on with the west coast during this time than the east, quite the opposite actually. I'd argue that the east had more going on all the way from the beginning to the end of the 90s.

I thought Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg had become rather mediocre by this point. And didn't Dr. Dre leave the west coast or something at this time?

Obviously there was a few sporadic artists here and there, but I don't think it even comes close to rivaling the likes of 2Pac, Cypress Hill, Ice Cube, N.W.A., Del tha Funkee Homosapien, etc.

Janszoon 07-20-2010 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903026)
I thought Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg had become rather mediocre by this point. And didn't Dr. Dre leave the west coast or something at this time?

I'm not sure if Dr. Dre left the west coast, I've never heard that before, but he released his second classic album in 1999 and where ever he was living he's still from the west coast. Snoop was always mediocre. He was only great when he teamed up with Dre so, yeah, his late 90s output was spotty because he worked with Dre less. That doesn't change the fact that he was still a big superstar in the late 90s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903026)
Obviously there was a few sporadic artists here and there, but I don't think it even comes close to rivaling the likes of 2Pac, Cypress Hill, Ice Cube, N.W.A., Del tha Funkee Homosapien, etc.

2Pac was (a) born and raised in NYC and (b) extremely overrated so he doesn't score any points for the west coast in the early 90s for me. Cypress Hill, Ice Cube and Del tha Funkee Homosapien were all still around making music in the late 90s, and N.W.A.'s classic era was in the 80s, so I don't really see how any of them figure into the debate at all.

midnight rain 07-20-2010 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 903033)
I'm not sure if Dr. Dre left the west coast, I've never heard that before, but he released his second classic album in 1999 and where ever he was living he's still from the west coast. Snoop was always mediocre. He was only great when he teamed up with Dre so, yeah, his late 90s output was spotty because he worked with Dre less. That doesn't change the fact that he was still a big superstar in the late 90s.

Ok, well I'm not interested in 'superstars' and neither are you obviously, since you listed some more obscure rap artists in your last post.

A similar analogy can be for AC/DC. They continued to sell in the late 80's and 90's, but I consider them basically a 70's act because I couldn't care less about what they've released post-1980.


Quote:

2Pac was (a) born and raised in NYC and (b) extremely overrated so he doesn't score any points for the west coast in the early 90s for me. Cypress Hill, Ice Cube and Del tha Funkee Homosapien were all still around making music in the late 90s, and N.W.A.'s classic era was in the 80s, so I don't really see how any of them figure into the debate at all.
Nice job contradicting yourself. You want to rule out N.W.A. because their prime was in the 80's, but then you want to include the artists I listed who's prime were clearly in the early 90's and not the later 90's. 2Pac rapped specifically about the west coast and its merits, making him a shoe-in for the west coast scene. It doesn't matter if you like him or not, he still was important to rap.

Janszoon 07-20-2010 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903036)
Ok, well I'm not interested in 'superstars' and neither are you obviously, since you listed some more obscure rap artists in your last post.

Okay, so why are we talking about 2Pac then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903036)
Nice job contradicting yourself. You want to rule out N.W.A. because their prime was in the 80's, but then you want to include the artists I listed who's prime were clearly in the early 90's and not the later 90's. 2Pac rapped specifically about the west coast and its merits, making him a shoe-in for the west coast scene. It doesn't matter if you like him or not, he still was important to rap.

I guess I could see where you'd think I was contradicting myself regarding Ice Cube since I agree he was better in the early 90s. With the rest I don't see any contradiction. Cypress Hill was always a band I was meh about and I definitely thought their late 90s music was equal to their stuff from the early 90s. And I'd argue that Del tha Funkee Homosapien hit his peak in the early 00s so that kind of takes him out of the equation altogether.

midnight rain 07-20-2010 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 903041)
Okay, so why are we talking about 2Pac then?

Because the music he released wasn't noteworthy simply because he was a superstar, it also was considered monumental music. Snoop Dogg was just releasing mediocre albums and making money, nothing groundbreaking.


Quote:

I guess I could see where you'd think I was contradicting myself regarding Ice Cube since I agree he was better in the early 90s. With the rest I don't see any contradiction. Cypress Hill was always a band I was meh about and I definitely thought their late 90s music was equal to their stuff from the early 90s. And I'd argue that Del tha Funkee Homosapien hit his peak in the early 00s so that kind of takes him out of the equation altogether.
Again, opinions. Most people who actually like Cypress Hill will say that their first two are clearly their strongest. Same with Del, from what I've heard most think his debut is the best he's done (which I agree with).

TheBig3 07-20-2010 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903045)
Because the music he released wasn't noteworthy simply because he was a superstar, it also was considered monumental music.

I never really got the Tupac thing either. He seemed to hedge his bets really well and be a "thug" when he was the most emotional sap going.

Quote:

Snoop Dogg was just releasing mediocre albums and making money, nothing groundbreaking.
According to Dre, he was the George Washington for black people. I don't know what the hell that means, but snoop isn't mediocre. When he's on, he's on. But this is the equivalent of saying a singer sucks unless his band is good. Chris Cornell fronted Audio Slave for a time. He wasn't mediocre.


Quote:

Again, opinions. Most people who actually like Cypress Hill will say that their first two are clearly their strongest. Same with Del, from what I've heard most think his debut is the best he's done (which I agree with).
Del's first album was barely Del. I like "catch a bad one" (if thats from his first) but thanks not who he was. Thats Del aping west coast gangsta trash and I think he's much, much better now.

Janszoon 07-20-2010 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903045)
Because the music he released wasn't noteworthy simply because he was a superstar, it also was considered monumental music. Snoop Dogg was just releasing mediocre albums and making money, nothing groundbreaking.

It wasn't considered monumental music by me then or now. I always found it dull and boring—the antithesis of groundbreaking—even when it was new.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903045)
Again, opinions. Most people who actually like Cypress Hill will say that their first two are clearly their strongest. Same with Del, from what I've heard most think his debut is the best he's done (which I agree with).

Of course I'm expressing opinions, just like you. I will say though you're the first person I've met who thinks that Del's first album was better than the Deltron 3030 album.

midnight rain 07-20-2010 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog (Post 903053)
According to Dre, he was the George Washington for black people. I don't know what the hell that means, but snoop isn't mediocre. When he's on, he's on. But this is the equivalent of saying a singer sucks unless his band is good. Chris Cornell fronted Audio Slave for a time. He wasn't mediocre.

That's what I said. He was on in the early 90's, and not so much in the late 90's. You may want to read over my posts again because I think you missed my post. Unless of course you're trying to defend "Da Game Is to Be Sold", in which case I have nothing more to say. :laughing:




Quote:

Del's first album was barely Del. I like "catch a bad one" (if thats from his first) but thanks not who he was. Thats Del aping west coast gangsta trash and I think he's much, much better now.
That's fine, but I'm pointing out how Del's output in the early 90's was much stronger than the late 90's. And I don't see the "gangsta" thing at all on his debut, you sure you were hearing the lyrics correctly?

midnight rain 07-20-2010 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 903054)
It wasn't considered monumental music by me then or now. I always found it dull and boring—the antithesis of groundbreaking—even when it was new.


Of course I'm expressing opinions, just like you. I will say though you're the first person I've met who thinks that Del's first album was better than the Deltron 3030 album.

No, I'm saying Del's first is better than his late 90's stuff, which I thought was what we were talking about. It's an excellent album either way, I'm a big fan of his first and Deltron 3030.

Janszoon 07-20-2010 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903057)
No, I'm saying Del's first is better than his late 90's stuff, which I thought was what we were talking about. It's an excellent album either way, I'm a big fan of his first and Deltron 3030.

I though you were disagreeing when I said I thought his peak was in the early 00s, not the early 90s.

midnight rain 07-20-2010 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 903074)
I though you were disagreeing when I said I thought his peak was in the early 00s, not the early 90s.

I just looked back and I did word it like that but that's not what I meant. My bad.

I still think his early 90's stuff is strong enough to stand on it's own two feet though :bringit:

TheBig3 07-20-2010 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903056)
That's what I said. He was on in the early 90's, and not so much in the late 90's. You may want to read over my posts again because I think you missed my post. Unless of course you're trying to defend "Da Game Is to Be Sold", in which case I have nothing more to say. :laughing:


You said he was mediocre. I said he wasn't.

Quote:

Snoop Dogg was just releasing mediocre albums and making money, nothing groundbreaking.
I don't think we're saying the same thing here.

midnight rain 07-20-2010 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBig3KilledMyRainDog (Post 903127)
You said he was mediocre. I said he wasn't.



I don't think we're saying the same thing here.

So is Snoop Dogg albums? Because I clearly say albums, not Snoop Dogg. Unless those two are synonyms...

Also, is there any reason your getting on my case but not Janszoon's? He said Snoop Dogg isn't good period, I only said his late 90's albums weren't good. Must be a mod thing.

TheBig3 07-20-2010 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903184)
So is Snoop Dogg albums? Because I clearly say albums, not Snoop Dogg. Unless those two are synonyms...

Also, is there any reason your getting on my case but not Janszoon's? He said Snoop Dogg isn't good period, I only said his late 90's albums weren't good. Must be a mod thing.

Jans didn't respond. You did. I lead of speaking to both of you.

Janszoon 07-20-2010 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903184)
Also, is there any reason your getting on my case but not Janszoon's? He said Snoop Dogg isn't good period, I only said his late 90's albums weren't good.

That's not actually what I said, though I guess I could see where it was unclear from the way I phrased it. I think he's a great rapper with an amazing voice but the final product with him always seems to end up mediocre unless Dr. Dre is involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna (Post 903184)
Must be a mod thing.

Big3 isn't a mod. :)

TheBig3 07-20-2010 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 903219)
Big3 isn't a mod. :)

I think he thought I was afraid of you.


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