Tsunami

I don't think it's that stupid. I personally don't care whether people consider the first wave of black metal black metal or thrash metal. Surely it's opinionated, very much so, but do you see people calling Slayer and Kreator death metal because they had a big influence on death metal?

The Batlord

Slayer and Kreator may have been influential, but they did not basically invent the whole style that the next wave of bands would run with. Without Slayer, death metal would still have pretty much been the same. Without Bathory, who knows if there would be a black metal genre today, cause they pretty much invented it.

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Tsunami

I disagree with that, someone would have came up with it sooner or later.

Edit: Please, I cannot converse with two-three people at once without producing spam.

The Batlord

Why? When Venom and Hellhammer came along, black metal was just really ugly and noisy rock and roll. Bands like Sarco***o and Necrovore were basically just really ugly and noisy thrash bands. Without Bathory (and to a lesser extent Celtic Frost) developing black metal into it's own sound that was distinct from thrash and death metal (regardless of the similarities), black metal may (keyword, "may") have been rendered obsolete by the development of death metal.

Edit: (I posted my post just after you posted this):

Bathory's first four albums. Bathory, The Return..., Under the Sign of the Black Mark, and Blood, Fire, Death.

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Tsunami

Yes, may, but without Kreator and Slayer death metal might have never born either.

Edit: And I don't know about Under the Sign of the Black Mark and Blood Fire Death, I've been talking about Bathory and The Return.

The Batlord

Yes it would've. Death metal was just the logical conclusion of thrash metal. It was just thrash metal faster, heavier, more brutal, with more ****ed up vocals and lyrics. That's a bit of an oversimplification, but as long as there was someone trying to up the ante, death metal was inevitable.

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Unknown Soldier

Hail Caesar!!!

Tsunami

Seeing that there were people trying to up the ante with black metal I don't see it as an impossibility either.

Edit: But this conversation is getting out of hands, seeing that we were simply discussing the label of Bathory's first albums, not whether there would be black metal without it or not.

Unknown Soldier

Based on what I know, when I think of black metal I think of the major influence on the genre being Celtic Frost and the Morbid Tales album. But I pretty much think of Bathory being The first true black metal artist, as their debut album came out the same year as the CF one in 1984. I pretty much think of Bathory being the essential black metal act before their switch to viking metal. Also Sarcofago are another first wave band that helped pave the way for the Norweigen scene (the second wave) and the wave that most people associate with black metal.