Does amazing music justify the grief that produced it?
 

It is almost unanimously accepted in the art world that loss, despair, loneliness, alienation, fear and grief can contribute to the creation of beautifully profound finished products that would've never come into being without said negative emotions being experienced by the artist.

The most striking musical example of this is Nick Drake. Drake's first two releases (Five Leaves Left and Bryter Layter) were lush and, although not lacking darkness, upbeat records oriented around Joe Boyd's slick production style and his mellow Donovan-esque songwriting. Although these two albums are quality records in my opinion, they still come off as dated, and some of the songwriting is undeniably generic. However, after the commercial and critical failure of his second album, Drake spiraled even deeper into his ever-present depression, becoming something of a recluse and declining to tour at all. This all translated into Pink Moon, a brief but utterly astounding album which expresses the existential melancholy and solace that Drake was experiencing at the time. It is, no doubt, his greatest achievement, and is one of the most profound albums I've ever listened to. After producing the record, however, Drake speedily expired (many claim that it was a result of suicide and there is sufficient evidence to back that up).

Other songwriters, such as Tom Waits and Van Morrison, produced some masterworks in times of great loneliness and despair. In a more detached way, John Lennon's solo work was greatly influenced by the alienation he felt as a child and the estrangement from his family. Would Plastic Ono Band be nearly as amazing as a record if it weren't for John's abandonment as a child? How about the entire Grunge movement? Or look at Rush. After nearly 5 years of extremely poor songwriting, Neil Peart's daughter and wife died. Facing the onset of a deep depression, Peart disappeared for some time on a cross-country bike ride to rid himself of his grief. When he finally returned into the studio, he brought with him some of his richest songwriting since the Signals/Grace Under Pressure sessions.

So what do you think? Does an amazing artistic product justify the depression and brooding despair of the individual artist?

Or does the success of albums born of despair lie with us and our ability to relate to them instead?

I agree with all of the above. Artist like Van Morrison are icons.

Grunge is a definite.

I see most of the grief in Grunge. I really don't know where your leading, by saying justify the grief. You might suggest the amazing music created by Cobain and Stanley could justify the grief (in some sense). They're dead rock stars aren't they? Its nothing new in/to rock & roll.

edit: Rush
That's why Ive always suggested as one of the reasons, that one of Rush's best albums is "Caress Of Steel". The lyrics by Neail Peart from the album "Caress Of Steel" are some of his best. As well, I personally think the music itself is all around better than their next album release 2112.

Although I like 2112, and other albums by Rush also.

I can be mad at the world, and create something sugary and sweet. With the same token, I can be happy as ****, and write something absolutely morbid.

Sad and depressing songs are often more powerful than happy songs.
One of my favorite band, Opeth, most of their song are quite depressive, but are very deep and give me chills sometimes.

The least you can do for a tortured musician is like his music :D.

I don't agree with this at all. His first album is his best imo. The second is overproduced, but the third is underproduced (unfinished I suppose too). His last is probably his weakest for me, but it gets romanticised by people as he died soon after the recordings.

And I'm not sure artists can be creative during despair, that is likely to sap them of energy and creative thoughts. It's a bit of a romantic era view that artists are best when suffering, normally they show suffering in their work after they have suffered and when they feel free to be creative again. And I'm not sure sad or dark work has to be seen as better than more serene or happier efforts either.

Yes.

Also how is an artist in despair if he is producing a successful musical creation, he's probably quite happy at what he has done. If anything he/she is exorcising the grief and so finding a way to put it more in the past. So the work actually isn't just related to the grief, but is just as much related to the artist finding his way out of his problems. So if it justifies the grief, it also justifies his/her having found a way out of that grief too.

If an amazing piece of art is the by-product of despair and suffering then it its far better than suffering for nothing. Compiling your thoughts and emotions into a piece of music/painting/poem/diary is therapeutic so I'd don't see any downside. If on the other hand the artist purposefully creates distressing situations in which to draw from, then we'd have a scruple on our hands, but then again artists are known to be eccentric.

Thats^ the "best" first post that Ive ever heard from anybody, all of the time Ive been here at MB.

Wow! I'm personally, really impressed Rubato. :)

well if you've been here for 4 years I'll take that as quite the compliment :D

mmm, Agreed. I would say that the thread starter is looking at it from the wrong angle: If grief were generated solely in order to create Music, then it would be a moral dilemma, but grief and sorrow are unavoidable on a grand scale - there will always be disappointments, deaths, tragedies... that we can create something beautiful out of the bleak losses that are a fact of life is certainly a silver lining to be cherished... Which is pretty much what you said :P

To extend a particular line, though, you said "If on the other hand the artist purposefully creates distressing situations in which to draw from, then we'd have a scruple on our hands, but then again artists are known to be eccentric." If this distress was of their own choosing and was orchestrated in such a manner that it did not (overly, at least) distress anyone else, I would see no problem - it is their choice, and provided their choice causes more benefit than harm (to others), I would choose not to stop them. If it were an external force causing them distress purely for the enjoyment of the ensuing produce (Distress Farming, sounds like something out of a Dystopian Novel), then I would have a serious problem with it. I would mourn the loss of such creative writing, but the ends do not justify the means. There is enough sorrow in the world without orchestrating more purely for our own entertainment.

I think it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of people, unless they are sado-masachists of some kind, would not create grief for themselves purposefully. And for anyone to do that thinking it would give them artistic inspiration is even less likely.

If anyone knows the story of Brian Wilson as he was trying to write SMiLE, it's hard to justify that the music justified what Brain went through. A combination of depression and a complete mental breakdown was due to medical history and drug use, but the pressure he felt he was under to try and out do the Beatles was a major factor. Obviously, SMiLE was never released and it pretty much ended Brian Wilson's career with the Beach Boys. Probably the only reason their late 60's-early 70's albums have any credence is because each one features 2-3 tracks from SMiLE that Wilson never finished and the rest of the band touched up. So, if the grief Brian Wilson went through justified the music... I'm gonna say no because it figuratively, and almost literally, killed him. And his masterpiece lives on as a scattered mess, as it was pulled apart and recycled on albums he had little to do with.

But, this demo of 'Surf's Up' was recorded near the tail end of the sessions and when Brian was on the verge of his full mental breakdown. If someone asked me what the most beautiful piece of music I ever heard was... I'd say this. If it means anything, Elvis Costello said it was like discovering a lost piece of Mozart.



If you have 15 minutes, the Wikipedia article is very accurate with the book I read about the SMiLE sessions. Smile (The Beach Boys album) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree whole-heartedly. Jacques Brel once said that what he wanted to accomplish was to benefit from that therapeutic effect. He didn't specifically want to sing or write or act, he wanted to project his feelings, his dreams, his failures unto the outside world. In a way, it's making one's dreams come true, but it's also taking one's failures and one's frustrations and turning them into something other people can enjoy or relate to. If this type of sharing were done more often, perhaps we'd be a much more enlightened species.

Well I did mention the theraputic aspect of the creation of music in my post before that too lol.

I'm starting to like you quite a lot. I really hope you stick around!

original post was tl;dr, but to answer the question. Yes, yes it does.

Ah sorry mate, should've paid more attention there.

If an artist is suffering and still working hard as hell to put his/her emotions into a work of art, it probably means that the work in question is one of the few things that keep him/her going through that dark period of time. If you commit yourself to work on something you love doing, it's often the best way, and sometimes the only one, to surmount all that's wrong in your life.

Absolutely. The best way to get through life at times with the disgusting conceited, judgemental and personal ignorance of people who you often have to meet, or through physical difficulties with your health, is to engross yourself in what you love. Maybe that means you miss out on other things, but at least you can say you tried to enjoy yourself in your brief life which we have no way of knowing will be long or not.

I disagree with that totally, all the post-trauma Brian albums are very underrated, and features some pretty good compositions from the other members, up until Holland, then they pretty much sucked, until a glimpse of Brian's recovery on Love You, then they spiralled into the abyss

Brian more or less completed his own version of Smile, while it is still quite good, i don't think it was awesome

the recently released Smile Sessions shows more promise, and what a grand statement it would have made in 1967 had Brian finished it then, then again, it would be considerably shortened since long albums were generally not the sort of thing for the BB's record company

another example of making great music whilst struggling to perceive reality as it is, and grounded in madness would be Syd Barrett's two albums, they're both very strange but have a unique charm not found on any other record

and back to Brian, Smiley Smile, though not what he wanted, is still a pretty interesting record

I think so.

It can be a healing process for the artist and viewer/listener alike.

the artist is able to get their feeling out in song/paper/acting, this can help them get over, or help overcome whatever they're going through.

The consumer will be able to identify with it and feel as if they're not alone and just able to feel.

I know music has helped me through many a dark times, and still to this day helps me deal with stress.

They actually just released a compilation of the Smile sessions. It's supposed to represent Brian Wilson's ultimate vision of the project. I haven't listened to it yet, but it's been received pretty well.

Anyway, I agree with this. I've always been fascinated that the Beach Boys produced very upbeat music while behind the scenes, their creative genius was really hurting. Some of my favorite albums have been made in the same way. The Smashing Pumpkins album Siamese Dream is one of those. Billy Corgan was on the verge of a nervous breakdown, James and D'arcy just broke up after a tumultuous relationship, and Jimmy was spiraling out of control with drugs. The result is one of my favorite albums of all time.

In the end, I don't think it's about justifying anything. I feel this is just a result of the human urge to express exactly how we feel to others. When you are really hurting, words don't always convey the feeling. Music can get us a little closer. This is probably why we can relate to this kind of music so much more than your everyday methodical music. We hear stuff like Smile and go..."Man, this guy was really in a bad place. I've been there before..."

I don't like a couple of tracks on the official Smile, so Smiley Smile is ultimately better for me I think.

Smiley Smile has a rather bizarre charm

Ding Ding Ding.

Am I missing something with this Brian Wilson worship?

You're not from the US are you? :rolleyes:

^ Bay Area, CA.

Music is my only drive to carry on living. It's a cathartic career, and it does help ease some of the emotional and physical baggage following me, and I have hopes that maybe if I get famous my parents will love me no matter what personal decisions I make. It's a stupid thing to think, but it's me. Does music justify the pain that produced it? I don't think it has to justify anything. It is what it is. A way to make a lasting mark on the world and have your voice out there. It's cleansing and without that expression I'd go insane.

Whether you like the Beach Boys or not, Pet Sounds...along with the Beatles' Sgt. Peppers... Represent two milestones in recording. So regardless of your opinion on the music personally, I feel Brian Wilson definitely deserves some respect. I myself am not really a huge Beach Boys fan.

Not to mention his story fits in perfectly with the thread topic.

I really believe that a lot of times, leaving a lasting mark on others is one of the most profound things that can happen in a lifetime. Once you're gone, and your legacy lives on through your music, it has all been worthwhile. Even if you're still living, if your music has made a profound impression on someone, anyone, you have succeeded.

If you suffered for it, it was cathartic in some ways. In other ways, it showed a vulnerable side of you rarely seen, and served to humanize the material you produced.

I'm not for suffering for much, but if you suffer for anything, suffer to make an impression on other people, to open their minds, and you are helping towards more progress than most. It is what it is, but it can also change a life. Or many lives. Perspectives can be altered. Progress can be made.

If I was held at gunpoint and brutally beaten, all the while making music which turned out to be widely accepted as some of the best music ever written - even if I had complete anonymity and someone else took credit; even if I died before I ever saw it released, I feel that would be worth it.

Art is always worth it.

Yeah, he deserves respect, but I don't feel he's the musical mastermind that people make out. Costello stating he felt he discovered an equivalent to a lost Mozart piece listening to Wilson's demo?

A little too much credit.

Virtually all of popular music is about hype, it's part of the business of it.