The French Massacre - Do We Stand Up For Free Speech?

Oriphiel · 01-09-2015, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

there's nothing wrong with being on the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to freedom of speech, imo. like chomsky says: either you support free speech or you don't. even stalin believed in speech he agreed with being free. it's the controversial speech that actually needs protecting.

i mean on the one hand we have people who are willing to kill for their religion. they at least have principles. they know where they stand. we should be just as firm with our values imo.

Stalin didn't agree with people having the right to speak freely. He had his secret police kill half of Russia for even hinting that they were disagreeing with him.

And you can say that extremists have principles, but that's kind of a redundant thing to say; everyone has principles, in one way or another. You shouldn't gauge the strength of someone's ideals by the amount of noise they make, or the violence they cause. Usually, the people who resort to violence aren't even doing it for ideological reasons; they simply want to feel powerful, and fear is an easily attainable means to an end. This is especially apparent in people who kill despite murder being forbidden in the very ideology that they claim to be upholding.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 01-09-2015, 06:53 PM

@ chula

they could've armed themselves if they chose to but honestly they're not obligated to do so. maybe they wanted to take a stand in broad daylight instead of bunkering down, which is honestly a better way to make their point. again it's about the level of discourse that we're at. these people keep making it clear if you insult islam they will attack. we need to make it clear that this won't stop us. that is all that really matters to me at this point.

@ oriphiel.

re-read my post. i said even stalin believed in speech he agreed with being free, not speech he disagreed with.

as for principles, that sounds like something a psychologist or someone would have to diagnose. how do you know they aren't doing it for ideological reasons?

Trollheart · 01-09-2015, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

One of the two muslims went up and shot a police officer in the back of the head while the officer was down on the pavement rolling in pain from being shot prior to his execution. I think people get caught up with the cartoons like the leader of Isis saying "have a healthy new year," and the promise that someone in islam is going to be next month's chief editor, saying how atrocious that is, that they had it coming because that is mockery of islam having the leader of Isis in a cartoon. Like somehow they are not responsible for their actions, other people are. I am pretty naive about all the ins and outs of islam but don't they have something like the ten commandments like the Jewish religion that says "Thou shall not kill"? I mean I can't even fathom the comparison of cartoon of the Isis leader that at the end of the day that doesn't amount to a hill of beans compare to human life. Those two muslims weren't provoked, they were assassins. That officer was killed because those two muslim had bloodlust - period. It has nothing to do with any other excuse.

I'm not quite sure you understood what I was asking, though thanks for responding. My point was: these police officers died as a direct result of having to provide protection for people who had already received death threats and ignored them. Did they, the police, deserve to die because some people were determined to push their own agenda no matter the consequences. The point here is that they not only endangered themselves but the lives of these police, whose views on free speech I do not know, but I am sure they would rather not have died for someone else's idea of what is perceived as freedom.

I'll address the last few posts towards me, so as not to be accused of running off, but after this I'm leaving the discussion. It's just getting too confrontational and I'm being represented as something I am not. It seems this is all black and white to most people, no grey areas, which is pretty naive in my view. So, one more post and I'm gone, then you can all continue to argue about this as long as you like. I just wanted to get my point across, and now that I have, and it's been savaged mostly, I'll be heading for the door.

Trollheart · 01-09-2015, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Benteke

Fuck me. What the fuck are you babbling on about?

I'm not talking about the people and the race thing has already been addressed, how many times do I have to say it. Islam and Muslims are not the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWbpS5P6Oe0

Maajid is bang on.

Also to that question you posted that Frownland just responded to, yes my response would be the same, if Christians do this I will mock them as well, I was Christened, my dad is a practising Christian and I went to Church every Sunday from the age of about 6 to 11. I've no problem mocking Christianity.

You seem to have misinterpreted that. I asked not would you mock them but would you blame them for killing the muslims? You're answering a question I didn't ask. Anyway I guess it's not that important. You have your view and won't change so before we get into any sort of argument or say something we'll regret I'm just exiting this now.

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It's just funny when people mock Islam you get the bleeding heart liberals being crybabies. Not having it. It's an ideology that deserves to be mocked.

Like I say, who are you to say that? They probably think the same about us, who worship some guy who died on a cross and only follow his teachings when it suits us. If any religion deserves to be mocked it's Christianity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

as much as i appreciate the historical reference and the dad joke, what you call an oversimplification i call telling it like it is without sugarcoating it for PC's sake.

honestly you guys saying the magazine should have known better are essentially saying what i said in so many words. they should've known better than to insult islam without expecting violence. it's pure insanity to me that you guys are willing to accept this level of discourse. honestly you should be deported to iraq for wanting to appease these bearded thugs.

Yeah, that's kind of you really. Don't change I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christian Benteke

"if you keep saying our religion is violent and intolerant, we will murder you, mate"

"If you want peace, prepare for war."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

1. You open with a joke about their deaths, and then complain that I described your attitude towards their deaths as "cavalier".

It was not a joke, it was an incredelous response to your claim that they "fought back the only way they knew how"

Quote:

2. You accuse me of placing words in your mouth, when all I did was analyze analogies that you yourself used earlier on.

You're choosing to see my view as something entirely different to what it is. That's what I'm saying. I'm just offering my attempt to balance out all this freedom forever/hero worship crap that's going on.

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3. You're right, there is enough trouble in the world. Which is why we shouldn't just sit back while murderers make it worse.

And we do that by insulting their religion and inviting more of the same?

Okay I get it: nobody, or virtually nobody agrees with me. I wanted to say what I felt and I have. I guess that's freedom of speech too. Now if anyone seriously wants to pursue any of the arguments here or feels they're being run out on, by all means PM me, but for now I have wasted enough time here trying to defend my opinion and it's time to step away and go looking for other people to annoy. I mean, back to my journals. Yeah. That's what I mean.

Hope nobody took serious offence, or takes it now. Just getting out before it gets any hotter.
Anyone who wishes to level accusations of cowardice or being a nancy at me go right ahead, but this argument has become circular and pointless and there really is nothing more I can say at this point. Sometimes, you just have to let it go.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 01-09-2015, 07:46 PM

the police are there to protect our rights. so yea, they take on that job knowing it might mean they might die over some **** like this. you should direct that guilt/anger at the guy with the bomb instead of the guy with the pen.

Pet_Sounds · 01-09-2015, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Is it wrong that while expressing these opinions I am listening to some of the most beautiful music I have heard in a long time? Well, since "Hospice" anyway...

You're just avoiding the issue now. Look back to the Crusades: if muslims said "Christians have it coming" would you agree? Generalisation is the worst type of argument. There are good and bad everywhere. You can't tar everyone with your brush just cos you don't like the colour of some of them. Or something.

No, it's MAKING them heroes, making them martyrs, which is bull****.

How did they stand up? By getting themselves killed? Great idea.

And please stop placing words in my mouth. I am not in the least cavalier about their deaths: I just think they need to be looked at in context. It was preventable, is what I'm saying. There's enough trouble in the world without stirring up more.

Let me ask you, all of you this: if this had been a Islamic hate rag who had posted pictures of say Jesus being ****ed by the devil, and a radical Christian group had killed them, where would your sympathies lie?

No, I have not.

Total oversimplification JWB. No wonder you broke your leg at the theatre, jumping to conclusions like that!

They didn't stand up for what they believe in. This is a myth being created around their "martyrdom". They were just poking the hornet's nest as they had done before. I'm sorry they were killed but there was no need for them to be.

Grindy, I did not ignore your post. Where did I? I'm writing reviews and getting dinner here. If I missed something sorry but it was not intentional.

And again, can anyone take up my point about the police? Does anyone have anything to say about their pointless deaths? Or are you all ignoring that cos you have no answer? This must be the fourth time I've challenged and nobody is coming back.

Absolutely with the Muslims. And I guarantee you 99.9% of Christians would say the same.

Oriphiel · 01-09-2015, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

@ oriphiel.

re-read my post. i said even stalin believed in speech he agreed with being free, not speech he disagreed with.

as for principles, that sounds like something a psychologist or someone would have to diagnose. how do you know they aren't doing it for ideological reasons?

Misinterpreted your post. Sorry, man. But in regards to the second part of your response, I think you need to re-read my post. How can someone claim that their ideology justifies their actions, when their actions break the rules of the ideology they claim to follow? At that point, ideology is nothing more than a convenient justification for their actions.

Josef K · 01-09-2015, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds

Absolutely with the Muslims. And I guarantee you 99.9% of Christians would say the same.

I actually agree, although I think a lot more people would condemn the Muslims' actions while acknowledging the value of free speech instead of saying "I support the cartoons because free speech".

Oriphiel · 01-09-2015, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Hope nobody took serious offence, or takes it now. Just getting out before it gets any hotter.
Anyone who wishes to level accusations of cowardice or being a nancy at me go right ahead, but this argument has become circular and pointless and there really is nothing more I can say at this point. Sometimes, you just have to let it go.

I think I speak for everyone when I say that no offense was taken. You were just voicing your opinions, as we all were. Also, nobody here thinks you're a coward. It's understandable if you're getting tired of this thread, as it's becoming pretty much a back-and-forth thing. I'm probably gonna take a break from this thread as well.

Pet_Sounds · 01-09-2015, 08:11 PM

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Originally Posted by Josef K

I actually agree, although I think a lot more people would condemn the Muslims' actions while acknowledging the value of free speech instead of saying "I support the cartoons because free speech".

Agreed, and I think the hypothetical reaction you described is probably what's being said in most Muslim countries.

01-09-2015, 06:53 PM	#172 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	@ chula they could've armed themselves if they chose to but honestly they're not obligated to do so. maybe they wanted to take a stand in broad daylight instead of bunkering down, which is honestly a better way to make their point. again it's about the level of discourse that we're at. these people keep making it clear if you insult islam they will attack. we need to make it clear that this won't stop us. that is all that really matters to me at this point. @ oriphiel. re-read my post. i said even stalin believed in speech he agreed with being free, not speech he disagreed with. as for principles, that sounds like something a psychologist or someone would have to diagnose. how do you know they aren't doing it for ideological reasons?

01-09-2015, 07:46 PM	#175 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	the police are there to protect our rights. so yea, they take on that job knowing it might mean they might die over some **** like this. you should direct that guilt/anger at the guy with the bomb instead of the guy with the pen.