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Old 04-28-2011, 11:23 PM   #687 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by oojay View Post
Of course an anology is an inference of a relationship between two or more pairs, I think we all know that.
Right, the fact that it concerns a relationship between two pairs is the basic fact. But why didn't you respond to the part about "the most important part of an analogy?"

My response to what you were saying may have fallen on deaf ears. As you said that most teenagers weren't intellectually capable of comprehending Aesop Rock's lyrics, I was comparing that to the argument that most white people cannot comprehend or understand rap music. Your argument utilized age as the discriminating factor, while mine utilized race. The analogy between discrimination based upon age and race is quite fitting, as neither one is correct (which is what I was attempting to convey to you, in so many words).
I'm not being ageist, it's not hard to understand what I was saying earlier. Pop songs, which are targeted towards teens very often, are crafted very particularly (and really, that involves simplicity) because they are more likely to appeal to greater numbers of that crowd; greater numbers = most = it's a fair generalization to say that "most" teenagers would be attracted to work that is easier to take in than someone like Aesop Rock's. Now, THAT SAID, as I've said countless times but I feel I should rephrase so you don't bring it up: I am absolutely aware of the fact that individuals should be judged on an individual basis. I understand that it's also not hard to find teenagers that don't fall under that majority--but it doesn't change the fact that that bigger group is there. So, if it is there, then it's not unfair to make a generalization about it, it's just necessary that you recognize that you can't place everyone from that group under that same umbrella; you cannot stick them all with the same stereotype. That's primitive. People do differ. I. Know. This.

But white people in general? You have all sorts of different age groups (which all have different basic sentiments), you have a much, MUCH more diverse group than just teenagers. "White people" in general vs. "teenagers" in general are not comparable because they're too different, so an analogy comparing them to make an argument wouldn't be compatible. That's just how analogies work, you have to analyze the relationships between each group, and "white people" and "teenagers" don't really... work.

Again, I realize what a generalization is, but I simply disagree with your utilization of it in this conversation.
Well, I supported my claim with reference to the fact that songs are crafted in certain ways to attract the greatest number of teenaged listeners possible, and [B]I noted that Aesop Rock doesn't really craft his work in that sort of style at all. Because he doesn't follow effective ways of appealing to the average teen, it follows that they are not likely to be his targeted fanbase.

Regardless of how vast an individual's vocabulary is, the efficacy of their commuinaction skills is based more upon the utilization of their vocabulary, not it's size.
That's... exactly what I said. Dude, you ignored that I said that. You didn't even quote it or anything.

It's clearly not usage of ad hominems when the argument was inferred from your own apodeictic statements.
Calling someone an attention whore or a self-absorbed moron is attacking the person, not the argument.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe some people just don't like Aesop Rock's music? That maybe it has absolutely NOTHING to do with a failure to comprehend his lyrics, rather just a general dislike for the content? It seems to me that you are misconstruing ANY criticism of Aesop Rock, and simply relegating it as a failure to comprehend.
...Dude. I'm ****ing saying that most people won't like his music. So yeah, obviously I understand that some people just won't like his music. But that means I'm not allowed to consider him a great and make a case for it? (Not that we're even arguing how good of an artist he is...) Yeah, I'm not even arguing against criticism of Aesop Rock, this was all about his target fanbase. You're pulling a lot of ideas out of thin air.

It is obviously not a good thing, as no one thus far has even implied that it is. It is technically impossible for someone to take pride in their ignorance. Once someone becomes aware of an ignorance, it is no longer an ignorance, simple as that.
Well, you criticized me for demeaning people who have that sort of character. That type of character is malignant upon society's progression, and thus, should be looked down upon.

We most definitely do disagree. I believe that the artist knows what their own intentions were better than anyone else.
But it's not all about the artist's own intentions. If their work spawns some completely different ideas to an audience, well, those truths that the audience picked up on are just as acceptable in an objective world.

I think truth is subjective; I think certain truths differ person to person, therefore, I don't think we should undermine what someone else sees in a piece of art. Because they might see something valuable.

Was this a typo? It is clearly evident what lyrics are or are not in a song.
Uh, did you read everything else in that paragraph? Okay, look. Let me break down your other example.

You said if you drew a picture of the race car, nobody could tell you that it wasn't a race car. Right--it's visual, it's right there, you see it. The race car is the subject, the contents of the piece. When considering a rap song and its artistic goal, the lyrics are the contents of the piece. Just like I can't tell you the race car isn't there, you can't tell me certain words aren't there. However, we can quarrel endlessly over the various possible purposes of that race car and the way it was drawn, and we can do the exact same over the possible meanings of lyrics. That's where interpretation comes in, and that's why your particular race car example of why the artist has the final say holds little weight, in my opinion.

The contradiction lies in the flip-flopping of whether or not Aesop Rock's music is concsious rap. I say that it does. You say that it doesn't. Then it does, but only partially. Then his music has the same undertones and subject matter of other conscious rap.
No, I never said it doesn't. Re-read what I said. I said it wouldn't fall just under that, which means he would, partially. Then I said he is conscious rap... partially. Then I said his music has a lot of conscious rap undertones. None of that was inconsistent...


Right, going over this whole thing, you really quoted a lot of portions of my paragraphs and argued against particular sentences rather than my central ideas. On top of that, you really have put a lot of words in my mouth through this whole thing; you've made assumptions that were arrived at from no clear direction.

Last edited by Jester; 04-28-2011 at 11:44 PM.
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