Jester

Right, so you don't even know the definition of an analogy. It's a relationship between two pairs, and the most important part of a functional analogy is that you ascertain the relationship between the first entities of each pair, so you can connect the two together. White people and teenagers?

I don't know why it's so difficult for you to understand that some things will not be enjoyed by a majority.


Not everyone's as unique as you think they are, firstly. And secondly, dude, you still don't even know what a fucking generalization IS.


It's common sense, dude, because of what I said in my previous comment which was in bold letters that you ignored completely. Because he doesn't follow typical guidelines for writing songs that will appeal to the masses.


Meh, fair enough, burden of proof lies with me. But as far as I'm concerned, logic points me in the direction that he wouldn't appeal to most people. And I'm not demeaning anyone for that, I'm not saying Aesop Rock IS THE BEST ARTIST EVER AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE HIM YOU SUCK AT EVERYTHING. If anything, you're the one who's been mad at me for me supporting him so much. I'm not getting upset with anyone for not liking him.


You didn't, I was saying it's a fact that most people use radios or mainstream media as their source of entertainment. And I was using that fact to lead into supporting commentary, which, as I pointed out before, you ignored, and that is that music on the radio (which is, as we've established, a primary source for music) is formulaic for a reason. Because those cheap formulas work. Simpler songwriting is going to appeal to more people. The music business understands that, hence watered-down commercialized versions of virtually every genre you come across. A large portion of radio listeners would be teenagers, and if Aesop Rock were trying to appeal to them, he probably would take a more simple, formulaic approach.


Dude, I haven't even really made a lot of statements. I just have to keep repeating yourself because you're not getting my point. You think I'm just calling all teenagers too stupid to listen to Aesop Rock, and I have to keep explaining to you that a generalization doesn't mean EVERYBODY. It means the biggest group. So yeah, I have to keep being repetitive because you're not listening to me.

Yes, you should judge things that come to you as individuals. I don't let the general sentiment of people get in my way. I don't talk to someone who's 16 and assume things like, "oh man, this person belongs to the 'teenage' group. This person's not gonna know anything!" I'm the farthest from that. I don't give a **** who or what you are as long as you can make sense out of what you're saying.

Really? Go get a quote where I said that at all, because that's bullshit.


Well that's a lofty inference, because I can tell you that I know that using a big word doesn't make you smarter than the next guy. But if you have a really vast vocabulary, it can work wonders, because you'll be able to express yourself in a multitude of ways.

...Wow. I know they aren't all the same. Haven't you even been listening to me?

Yeah, man. I obviously can't comprehend things at an average 15 year old's intellectual level. (It's funny how many ad hominems you load into your posts... Not that I haven't exchanged any, but Jesus, that's all you're aiming for!)


No I'm not, I'm applauding someone for trying to put information into their heads. And you really believe that Aesop Rock is just reading dictionaries and stringing together words randomly? He's not, so I don't even get the point of this argument.

And it wouldn't just be about referencing the wikipedia link, it would be about digesting the information in the link (that would be like digesting the definition of the word), and therefore knowing more, and being able to use that information correctly (as in, not just referencing, but understanding the facts and being able to cite them on your own and analyze the information in useful ways--this would be like being able to use a word correctly.)

It's not about just having the tools, it's about what you do with them.


Well I don't believe in karma. Bad things happen to good people everyday, and bad people get away everyday.

Dude, LOL, how are you assuming that I'm an attention whore and all that? Because I disagreed with someone, and then you disagreed with me, and now I'm defending my views? How whorish!

Again, you're just like, not listening. It's not for no reason. I'm demeaning laziness. Laziness towards learning is a vice. If you don't think it is, then you're one of the problems that humanity faces when it comes to progressing. I'm saying it's a bad thing to not try and seek information and know things, and you're somehow misconstruing that into another insult about me and claiming that it means that I need attention. I'm really getting the sense that you're disagreeing with everything I say just to disagree. Really... Tell me how people who take pride in their ignorance and refuse to correct it are good things.


See, this is where we disagree: you think that the artist's definition of their art is the last straw, and that any other interpretations mean nothing. I don't believe that is the case. Have you ever read or seen Waiting for Godot? Samuel Beckett said that it was about nothing, but it's spawned all sorts of ideas and criticisms and healthy brain activity. Even I can take more than nothing away from Waiting for Godot! (To me, it shows humanity chasing its own tail.)


Okay, sure, there's abstract visual artists. But you were giving me talk of a picture of a goddamn race car, which is far from abstract, and plus, you said that if you drew a race car, you could say it's a race car and no matter what you say, it's gonna be a race car. Well, that might be true. But the actual drawing is more like the lyrics of a song. You can't tell me certain lyrics were not in a song, but we can debate all day the reason why those lyrics are there.

But okay, you win that one, man--there's abstract, open-ended visual art. But I don't give a shit about visual art at the moment and it has nothing to do with what we're talking about and I haven't really developed any strong opinions in visual art, so I wouldn't be able to really contribute much.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL. WHAT? Next time someone says a joke, and I don't get it, and they say it went over my head, that's what I'm gonna say.

"Hey man, I said something about it and you gave me a dull response. Obviously, I understood your joke."


How was I inconsistent?

First quote I say he wouldn't just fall under that umbrella, implying that he would, but it wouldn't be his only or primary one. I guess you missed the key word, huh? It happens.

Second quote I said he's kind of conscious rap, and in the third I basically repeat the same thing.

Tell me where the contradiction lies.

I'd prefer 20.

Jester

Are you kidding me, dude? I think the guy's ridiculous, but somehow we've got into discussing authenticity of interpretation, breaking down analogies, opinion vs fact, teenagers and their clearly fully-developed minds, Aesop Rock's credibility, pop music, and whether or not Aes is writing 2THAKIDZ.

There's all sorts of interesting shit going on here, it's right under the flesh. You just have to get past all the negative attitudes. Don't let both of us behaving like assholes at each other take away exercising the brain! Get in here agree, disagree, and make some points. Bring some fresh perspectives to the table. Take a stance, get riled up about making a point.

Sparky

Neither of you have been interpreting ****, its just you saying aesop isn't for the majority and oojay saying that you aren't allowed to say what isn't for the majority.

Aesop Rock writes what seems like ( while keeping in mind my lack of textbook education)more traditional poetry, or just highly interpretive lyrics. I can appreciate this more in other genres when it is accompanied by singing vocals instruments and music that has a range of sounds and progression, not just a repetitive loop.

When i listen to rap I'm in it for the commentary, in a sense i want to be "sold" the rappers opinions and outlook on life through recalling of expireances, jokes, **** talk, etc. I listen to rap primarily for the character types, not to try to find "myself" in the artists lyrics, not like other genres.

I'm not saying it has to be entirely digestible, but Aesop's lyrics are admittedly incredibly personal, and for a lot of his material I'm certain their is no message he is really trying to convey(though you'll probably disagree with that) and my interest fades and his voice just turns into melody in the back of my head.
Also, this:



I was actually kinda happy he made his own aesop rock-style sex jam

Also, as for the target demographic being teenagers, that was the wrong wording, i'd say for a while that was the intended marketing. He had a campaign going on mtv, and the ****ty skeleton cover art of "none shall pass" and kids writing aesop lyrics on the walls of my highschool just kinda left me with that impression. I'd say rap music in generalis focused more on teens and young adults however, you aren't seeing any grown ass men at wu tang shows, method man is performing for 9th graders making them chant "we want how high 2" in between songs. You still have a 38 year old slug scraping the bottom of the barrel for any adolescent angst or premature rebellion he can milk for one more cornball atmosphere album.

[MERIT]

Of course an anology is an inference of a relationship between two or more pairs, I think we all know that. My response to what you were saying may have fallen on deaf ears. As you said that most teenagers weren't intellectually capable of comprehending Aesop Rock's lyrics, I was comparing that to the argument that most white people cannot comprehend or understand rap music. Your argument utilized age as the discriminating factor, while mine utilized race. The analogy between discrimination based upon age and race is quite fitting, as neither one is correct (which is what I was attempting to convey to you, in so many words).

I'm not failing to understand, I am disagreeing that things can be so easily relegated. I think this one goes down as a fundamental difference of opinion between us. To each his own.

Everyone is unique, as unique as one can be by defining themself by the works of others that they enjoy and subscribe to (the music that other people make that they enjoy, the movies they watch that other people shoot, the books they read that other people wrote, etc.)

Again, I realize what a generalization is, but I simply disagree with your utilization of it in this conversation.

I disagree that you have a valid point, no matter how many times you repeat it. You misconstrue my disagreement as a failure to comprehend. Agree to disagree.

Regardless of how vast an individual's vocabulary is, the efficacy of their commuinaction skills is based more upon the utilization of their vocabulary, not it's size.

It's clearly not usage of ad hominems when the argument was inferred from your own apodeictic statements.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe some people just don't like Aesop Rock's music? That maybe it has absolutely NOTHING to do with a failure to comprehend his lyrics, rather just a general dislike for the content? It seems to me that you are misconstruing ANY criticism of Aesop Rock, and simply relegating it as a failure to comprehend.

It is obviously not a good thing, as no one thus far has even implied that it is. It is technically impossible for someone to take pride in their ignorance. Once someone becomes aware of an ignorance, it is no longer an ignorance, simple as that.

We most definitely do disagree. I believe that the artist knows what their own intentions were better than anyone else.

No, I have never read nor seen it, but I will look into it.

Was this a typo? It is clearly evident what lyrics are or are not in a song.

The contradiction lies in the flip-flopping of whether or not Aesop Rock's music is concsious rap. I say that it does. You say that it doesn't. Then it does, but only partially. Then his music has the same undertones and subject matter of other conscious rap.

GERD

that is a seriously impressive post oojay.much kudos for the effort and time taken to construct it.

Sparky

apodictic is a word im glad i picked up, my browser doesn't even think its real.

Jester

Right, the fact that it concerns a relationship between two pairs is the basic fact. But why didn't you respond to the part about "the most important part of an analogy?"

I'm not being ageist, it's not hard to understand what I was saying earlier. Pop songs, which are targeted towards teens very often, are crafted very particularly (and really, that involves simplicity) because they are more likely to appeal to greater numbers of that crowd; greater numbers = most = it's a fair generalization to say that "most" teenagers would be attracted to work that is easier to take in than someone like Aesop Rock's. Now, THAT SAID, as I've said countless times but I feel I should rephrase so you don't bring it up: I am absolutely aware of the fact that individuals should be judged on an individual basis. I understand that it's also not hard to find teenagers that don't fall under that majority--but it doesn't change the fact that that bigger group is there. So, if it is there, then it's not unfair to make a generalization about it, it's just necessary that you recognize that you can't place everyone from that group under that same umbrella; you cannot stick them all with the same stereotype. That's primitive. People do differ. I. Know. This.

But white people in general? You have all sorts of different age groups (which all have different basic sentiments), you have a much, MUCH more diverse group than just teenagers. "White people" in general vs. "teenagers" in general are not comparable because they're too different, so an analogy comparing them to make an argument wouldn't be compatible. That's just how analogies work, you have to analyze the relationships between each group, and "white people" and "teenagers" don't really... work.


Well, I supported my claim with reference to the fact that songs are crafted in certain ways to attract the greatest number of teenaged listeners possible, and [B]I noted that Aesop Rock doesn't really craft his work in that sort of style at all. Because he doesn't follow effective ways of appealing to the average teen, it follows that they are not likely to be his targeted fanbase.

That's... exactly what I said. Dude, you ignored that I said that. You didn't even quote it or anything.

Calling someone an attention whore or a self-absorbed moron is attacking the person, not the argument.

...Dude. I'm ****ing saying that most people won't like his music. So yeah, obviously I understand that some people just won't like his music. But that means I'm not allowed to consider him a great and make a case for it? (Not that we're even arguing how good of an artist he is...) Yeah, I'm not even arguing against criticism of Aesop Rock, this was all about his target fanbase. You're pulling a lot of ideas out of thin air.


Well, you criticized me for demeaning people who have that sort of character. That type of character is malignant upon society's progression, and thus, should be looked down upon.


But it's not all about the artist's own intentions. If their work spawns some completely different ideas to an audience, well, those truths that the audience picked up on are just as acceptable in an objective world.

I think truth is subjective; I think certain truths differ person to person, therefore, I don't think we should undermine what someone else sees in a piece of art. Because they might see something valuable.

Uh, did you read everything else in that paragraph? Okay, look. Let me break down your other example.

You said if you drew a picture of the race car, nobody could tell you that it wasn't a race car. Right--it's visual, it's right there, you see it. The race car is the subject, the contents of the piece. When considering a rap song and its artistic goal, the lyrics are the contents of the piece. Just like I can't tell you the race car isn't there, you can't tell me certain words aren't there. However, we can quarrel endlessly over the various possible purposes of that race car and the way it was drawn, and we can do the exact same over the possible meanings of lyrics. That's where interpretation comes in, and that's why your particular race car example of why the artist has the final say holds little weight, in my opinion.


No, I never said it doesn't. Re-read what I said. I said it wouldn't fall just under that, which means he would, partially. Then I said he is conscious rap... partially. Then I said his music has a lot of conscious rap undertones. None of that was inconsistent...

----

Right, going over this whole thing, you really quoted a lot of portions of my paragraphs and argued against particular sentences rather than my central ideas. On top of that, you really have put a lot of words in my mouth through this whole thing; you've made assumptions that were arrived at from no clear direction.

Jester

When I mentioned interpretation, I was saying that him and I were arguing over the principle of interpretation. And yeah, but I think I at least supported why he wasn't "for the majority," and his disagreement mostly amounted to "well, some people don't fall under that category! so HAH! Aesop Rock isn't that good!" Like... What?

I can see that, not to mention, in other genres, the lyrics won't be so long as in rap, so there's less worry over filler and there's less to digest--the lines pop more.

And... a lot of music relies on some sort of loop that drives the rhythm.

I see why you're such a big MF DOOM fan, then.

Well, a lot of times he seems to have a stream-of-consciousness approach to imagery, but he has a beautiful knack for it, and the fact that it doesn't have an easy answer to it is nice. I like the way it works; it's like, these weird images and ideas with words are laid out in front of you, and you have to make sense out of them in accordance with your world. But listening to Aesop Rock a lot, you see consistency in themes and things like that, and you can notice a lot of different sort of linking factors through the lyrics. I think he's making more sense than a lot give him credit for, in those instances that seem nonsensical. Just because it doesn't make sense to everyone doesn't mean it won't click something in someone's head. And that's nice!

That said, yes, Aesop Rock has moments where even I, lone defender of Aesop Rock's purpose(!), am left dumbfounded, with a sense of "that makes zero sense!" But I don't think it's good to just write it off as nonsensical.

This reminds me of Zen philosophy. I imagine the Eastern world would have a greater appreciation for an Aesop Rock of their own! Zen philosophy appreciates being shocked into that state of consciousness which triggers a "whaaa?" response. This instance is known as satori, which means something like sudden enlightenment. Not exactly on topic, but my head just made that connection. :P

Good points--and wow, I'm mad jealous. If people were writing Aesop lyrics on walls around my school... Or, if some of them knew who Aesop Rock was, I'd be pretty excited. We come from pretty different worlds.

Word, okay, putting it that way kind of swayed my perception a bit. Yeah, hip hop in general (OH MY GOD) could be seen to be focused more heavily on teens or young adults, because it has a really youthful sort of energy to it--that ahead of the world sort of ideology. I definitely see younger people listening to rap before older people--but I think that's because it's still new, and older people before us have grown up with their own music, you know? Give it 20 years and there's gonna be a lot of old rap fans, I bet.

But back to how that ties into Aes's fanbase... Yeah, like I said, I see younger people first, but I guess young adults came to mind before just teenagers. Either way, I don't think he's writing to anyone specifically, I think he's writing for himself (like you said, a lot of his shit is clearly pretty personal), and sharing it with the whoever's gonna listen.

Oh, and oh my god, when did that come out? I've wanted to hear something like that forever. Just for the novelty value, I guess. Thanks!

Sparky

Yeah, i think the song "put your quarters up" is a pretty good example of the difference between doom and aesop's approaches. The theme was probably sposed to be videogames

Pretty crazy stuff, and i think some of it is really vivid descriptions through the eyes of videogame characters, but then halfway through stops being coherent enough for me to get anything out of it really.

Doom keeps it simple and just references some video games, but that just makes me like his character and give me and idea who he is when listening to his music. It's like the more you listen to his more music the more you know about the supervillian, all his fetishes, awkward robberies, evil plans, being a drunken bum or whatever.



Aesop for sure has connections his dislike and paranoia of "uptight citizens" is one I've noticed in that song i quoted and others. His albums except for none shall pass have usually had a clear theme to them. His frantic flow is often enough, and gets me energized.

him rapping over the second beat in this song is hard as fuck


It seems because rap has always been thought of in part, as a means to get out of poverty, and get stacks, it has had to be even more of an industry then other genres. It's always been more focused on trends and gimmicks, and those don't have any lasting appeal so older rappers can't really appeal to a younger demographic. Artist integrity isn't as important as just having the latest sound. Some of what I'm saying is an exaggeration, but I really don't think a rap artist has as many ways to mature as a band, and often they just gotta do some gay singing ****, a la ceelo or andre3000.

Public Enemy is considered one of the greatest groups of all time and nobody buys their new album because they're sound is outdated. This isn't the case for teenagers and nirvana who are the same rough time period. There aren't even old people buying new public enemy or de la soul.

davidlord

Here come the list of my top 10 Rap Artist:
Public enemy
Andre 3000
Nirvana
Beatless
B.B King
NAS
3 6 Mafia
DJ Shadow
Pete Rock.