Soulflower

Never denied the thug image was apart of his market. However, his childhood was not perfect and he did struggle.

Do you make all your opinions off of assumptions?

Ice Cube was actually apart of a gang and grew up in a bad area. (There is nothing fake about that)

Before Jay Z was even signed to a record label... Ice Cube was pioneering gangsta rap/street as a memeber of NWA. So dont get that twisted. He is criminally underrated.




Once again most of the rappers over the last 10 years in mainstream have done gangsta rap/street life. There isnt much depth in the mainstream rap music. Like I told you previously, Jay Z did not pioneer this. This was going on before Jay Z was even signed to a label! I suggest you listen to other rappers besides Jay Z lol Jay Z did not invent the type of rap that is out now.

He is more influential because there are more rappers that site him as an influence and he has more influential abums that has helped the progression of the genre such as 7 Day Thoery, Me Against The World etc

You keep talking about all these influences Jay Z . Nas, Krs One, DMX, 50 cent, The Game etc have all publicly criticized his music.




Your point?


Jay Z has made NUMEROUS conceited statements that indicates he thinks he as well as his music is more important than what it is.


I dont hate Jay Z. I just think he is overrated and there are more deserving MCs that deserves the credit that he gets who have actually done more for hip hop (community wise and music wise).

If you actually read my previous posts that was not the only reason I gave. He is more lyrically superior and a talented songwriter. He also was a much better performer.



Will definitly do.

Well if you actually listened to his music instead of making judgements about music you dont listen to, you will find that his music does not just consist of "the ghetto" and he actually discusses social, political, prejudice, love, life, success etc. You might would open your mind to a different perspective if actually listened to his music instead of being judgemental just because Jay Z is your favorite rapper. Just because you might not relate to his experiences or outlook doesnt mean you can not be open minded especially if you call yourself a hip hop fan. That is how and why hip hop was created it.

I seriously dont believe how you can expect for anyone to take your arguement seriously when you havent listen to any of 2pac music but yet want to make bold claims about his music.


Classic as in "timeless" music that regardless of the time period/era the song or album came out, it will still be relevant or listened to in the future.

Albums like Whats Goin On, Thriller, etc are classics.

What makes that album currently popular? How is it relevant today?

Actually it does if the media is proclaiming him to be the best rapper ever and he doesnt have a strong back catalogue of classics.

Before I even make my arguement, have you actually listened to these albums??


Definitly false. Do you listen to DMX? He would crush Jay Z in a free style battle. LOL NO QUESTION

He made the same kind of music Jay Z made but he actually can free style/battle... Jay Z cant.


That is not "hip hop" and you obviously have a misrepresentation of what hip hop is which makes your arguement even more pathetic and very ignorant.
Hip Hip is a subculture, way of life and is not just about "music" and "shooting guns".



LOL

When did I cal 2pac the greatest rapper????

I think you need to calm down because you stanning hard for Jay Z over there and are just making up things lol.

The point is 2pac had more depth and artistic merit to his music than Jay Z has which contradicts all the accolades he receives.

Jay Z has made numerous statements insisting his music is deep and that it is more important than what it actual is.


Actually, they originally were being discussed with the likes of Jay Z in the beginning of the discussion before it moved to just specifically Jay Z vs BIG/2pac. I compared NAS/Rakim to Jay to show that there are more talented rappers from Jay Zs era that are better to refute his "best rapper title". I was making a point that was related to the discussion so bringing them up was justified

Stronger as in more authenticity and creativity.


Why dont you listen to his music find out?



How are those 2Pac albums any more influential? Please give reasons behind your wild accusations. Are you trying to say Jay-Z isn't an international icon and that many rappers haven't cited him as an influence?

In a nut shell, they are more creative and artistic. They have better quality lyrics that reflect a theme throughout. The albums cohesive and allt his songs are different from one another. The production is experimental and fits the nature of the theme. The lyrics tell a story in cleaver ways such as through metaphors, imagery and descriptions that are creatively executed. He tackles complex and controversial issues and he manages to do it in a artistc way

How?

You havent proven your point either.



Make sure you read this post because in a couple posts down you argue you never implied this.

Its embarrassing because Tupac has more raw talent and the back catalogue. BIG has a stronger back catalogue as well. They have been the most iconic mainstream rap figures in rap music since their passing and they also have been the most cited rappers as influences within the last 10 years


From your previous response and based on this response you dont know what it means which is why I explained it.



Okay, so by you're definition, I was correct. Then why did you have to explain it, as I obviously already know. You just said so yourself.



I never said that he insisted he was a political rapper but he has made conceited comments that suggest his music is more complex than what it really is.





Yes but you obviously dont

and you did argue that he was better as well as consistent.

All his albums are the same crap just with different beats.

Nas and Rakim actually tackled complex issues and collaborated with different artists etc There word play is also more mature and creative unlike Jay Zs elementary rhymes.They have continued to push themselves artistically while Jay Z relies on what makes money.



How did you prove this?

The links that you gave showed the opposite of the point you were trying to make. O the irony...2pac actually sold more than him and his album debut at number one. Jay Zs album debut at number three and didnt even reach a million by the end of the year it was released and I am still lost with what explanations you gave besides it being more critically acclaim (which doesnt mean anything)

Which you are entitled to think but you have not given any evidence or support as to why you think he is. Arguing that he is more commercially has nothing to do with the QUALITY of his music or TALENT and constantly bringing about RN is not going to cut it because Nas was doing the same thing in 94 before Jay Z even got signed and was doing it better.


Contradiction.

You have belittle their music this entire time. In a post above you even insisted 2pacs music was just " lyrics about the ghetto"


First off
You dont even read anything YOU write lol as well as what I have written. You also dont listen to any of the music you are so informed about.


The fact that they are seen as laughing stocks isnt the point. The point is they make gangsta rap, contrived or not. You are insisting that te subgenre isnt prevalent anymore when it actually is
I addressed this already and you did not give a bunch of names or notable rappers


Please depart. You have not given any objective and open minded explanations for your opinions. You are beyond ignorant in your assumptions on what you think "hip hop" is. What makes this entire conversation funny is that you want to debate with me what hip hop is and you CLEARLY dont even know what it means lol The irony is most of what you THINK is hip hop really isnt because rap and hip hop are two different things. Degrading the genre to just "ghetto" or "shooting guns" is ignorant.

You have not supported why you think Jay Z is the best rapper and seem very close minded to different opinions and constructive criticism Jay Z gets. I have not bashed him or flamed him. I have gave constructive points and you clearly are not mature enough to engage in a respectful debate with someoen who disagrees with you. Adios