FRED HALE SR.

No doubt and K-FED is legitimately fat also.

Cuthbert

He's a jack of all trades master of nothing rapper who adapts to contemporary trends to create music which sells at that particular moment in time.

djchameleon

So you are basically saying that he's the Madonna of Rap then?

__________________

Fame, fortune, power, titties. People say these are the most crucial things in life, but you can have a pocket full o' gold and it doesn't mean sh*t if you don't have someone to share that gold with. Seems simple. Yet it's an important lesson to learn. Even lone wolves run in packs sometimes.

Soulflower

This entire conversation has been an exchange of opinions. I never said anything was "fact".

In your previous posts you argued that Jay Z did not benefit from their deaths and made non significant points to demonstrate this. I consistently brought that issue up because you bashed the claim. It doesnt matter anymore now (since finally you have acknowledged it) but just saying.


That was not the point I was making at all. I argued that he would not be as big as he is if they had not died (which you agree with). Im sure he would still have some level of popularity but not to this degree.

Pac did not like Jay Z and I dont think Jay Z liked Pac either when he first came out. Pac dissed Jay Z so I highly doubt he would have wanted to record with him. It is possible BIG would have recorded with Jay Z but that still doesnt justify Jayz lackluster catalogue and average skill level.

I dont think you are reading my posts properly because I acknowledged that Pac/ Biggie probably would not be as relevant as they were during the 90s (I have already acknowledged this in previous posts) but they would have been viewed as icons/influential despite that and I gave examples of areas they probably would have went with their careers. I even argued that Tupac probably would not have wanted to be relevant/mainstream and probably more underground with his music since that was the direction he was going with his music before he died.

I dont see how you derived that I think Pac/Biggie would have never had a decline in popularity. The reason why they are important in this discussion is because Jay Z debut during their peaks and unfornately they died at the the height of their popularity so its always a speculation of the future of their careers but that doesnt mean I am insisting their popularity would have never declined.


You might want to look at those links because they actually show the opposite outside of the critics ratings.

I was not comparing those two seperate albums. I was specifically referring to Tupac's and Jay Z overall catalogue and influence when I made my comparision. I was not specifically comparing Reasonable Doubt and 7 Day Theory as albums but if you want to get technical.... The 7 Day Theory sold (4x platinum) which was more than Reasonable Doubt which only sold 400,000 copies by the end of 1996. Reasonable Doubt debut at number 3. The 7 Day Theory debut at number 1.

So your whole arguement that Jay Z was more popular around the time Tupac died is not accurate. The critics ranked RD higher than 7 Day Theory but that doesnt necessarily make it more influential or stronger. Thats just one album that was critically acclaim higher which really isnt shocking because 7 Day Theory is more socially conscious than RD which is mostly gangsta rap but 5 years to late. Its a descent album and definitly Jay Z's best album but I personally think its overrated overall because there are much stronger gangsta rap albums from that era that are more influential.


How did Jay Z outshine it when 2oacs album sold more and was artistically better?
I never forgot that was Jay Z's debut and mentioned it quite a few times.
Are you speaking in sales or in critical acclaim? The album could have debut at number 5. It still was more artistic and creative than Reasonable Doubt.

I dont care if 100 magazines says Jay Z RD is the most influential it was "descent" and there were much better albums.

Have you actually listened to the 7 Day Theory?




Lil Wayne, Rick Ross, Wale, Wacka Flocka, 50 cent, TI, The Game, and the list goes on... this isnt rocket science.


No I havent.

I have actually given Jay Z his props... where its warrented.

I said that he was a smart business man and he has catchy music that is fun to dance too. I also said that he kept the right producers, songwriters, beat makers around him and knows how to market himself. Besides Biggie/2pac deaths, these are other factors in his success......HOWEVER none of these things requires alot of skill or talent. His talent is average I never said he sucked but his talent is not exceptional and he most certainly isnt one of the best in his fields.

Now if you rank being "the best" rapper as in the most successful and commercially accomplished then he obviously is the best but when I think of the "best" I think of artists who are exceptionally skilled or talented in their area of expertise and have strong artistic albums Marketing and commercialism has nothing to do with individual being artistic or talent. There are millions of talented singers, rappers, etc who dont have a million dollar marketing but that doesnt necessarily mean they suck.

Even a rapper like Mos Def is more superior to Jay Z (talent and catalogue wise).

Thats not what Ive heard. Ive heard Jay Z speak about business and owning NBA teams, clothing lines, shoes, etc. Ive heard Jay Z talk about things that dont have nothing to do with music specifcally. To me, he currently doesnt seem sincerely passionate about hip hop/rap. He just seems to do it to stay in the spotlight (overexposed) and latches on to artists to stay relevant. He seems to care about "business" and investing in things that will bring him more money. (He is excellent at it, I just dont see how any of these things have to do with hip hop) It seems since he is a rapper that is commercially successful he is marketed as "the best" in his genre and that is not true.


This is not really a good comparision. 2pac did not invest in NBA teams, clothing lines, etc.

Jay Z always had good marketing and his music has always been gimmicky and radio driven. This did not just start this decade. He eventually invested in different things outside of music but he has always been marketed commercially and well.

Are you reading my posts? lol

I already argued that BIG and Jay Z were the same package but I feel BIG was better at it and had better songs.


Once again have you been reading? lol

If I am arguing that BIG/2pac were some of the most popular rappers of the 90s then what does that suggest? That suggest they more than likely had pretty good marketing. However, they werent nearly as overexposed as Jay Z is. Tupac's music has some level of realness and artistic qualities about it despite the thug image.


You honestly dont think the whole collaboration with Justin is not for marketing reasons????? Jay Z released an album with Kanye last year and toured with him and you think the collaboration this year and tour with JT is for artistic reasons?

Jay Z is capitilizaing off of Justins comeback because he hasnt released an album in 7 years and there was alot of anticipation with the release. Dont be naive. Jay Z is smart but JT on the otherhand is not.

If JT was smart he would have did his own come back tour by himself instead of collaborating with Jay Z who just recently finish touring with Kanye a couple months ago. Why would you let someone who has been touring and releasing music steal some of your comeback spotlight?

Snoop was past his peak when he collabed with Tupac and Pac was not capitalizing off of Snoop dogg which is a big difference. Snoop had not been gone from music for 7 years like JT was.



When?

This entire time I argued that his music has not been that much different since his debut. His debut was descent but it wasnt exceptional or innovative Rappers like Nas, Rakim, Wu Tang etc were already doing or doing that and was doing it better. It still does the same gimmicky gangta rap.

You implied that.

Who is glorifying them? Your saying the same thing I already said. I have already acknowledge this is partially why they are held as icons.

HOWEVER

You seem to think this is the ONLY reason why they are glorified. You make contradiction after contradiction. You biasedly choose to not point out their successes and abilities. Instead you revert to, "they are icons just because they died" You argue this is not what you are trying to imply but you do it every single time. WE ALREADY know this is partially why they are glorified but it most certainly isnt the ONLY reason why.

Just because I think they are better than Jay Z doesnt mean I am glorifying them. I have been objective and constructive. You on the other hand seem to think Jay Z is better than everybody and is the best despite other more skilled rappers (You are entitled to think that but dont sit up here and insist I am glorifying two rappers when you are doing the same thing) Biggie and 2pac is not even my most favorite rapper although 2pac is one of my favorites..

So just because I like 2pac/Biggie that means I think shooting is real?

I dont get the point you are trying to make here because couldnt the same assumption be made about you, since you listen to Jay Z?

Once again, lets focus on the discussion and not revert to being chidlish and judgemental which you obviously have difficulty in doing.


[QUOTE=Mankycaaant;1314015]
Doesn't the fact that those albums sold so well contradict your earlier point about the marketing that Jay-Z uses. Pac and Biggie obviously used the same million dollar marketing schemes to catapult their records to such mainstream attention. [QUOTE=Mankycaaant;1314015]

Once again, I have never denied this but 2pac and Jay made different music especially the last album 2pac released before he died compared to Jay Z's debut and catalogue in genral. 2pac was not as overexposed as Jay Z is. Although 2pac was marketed well, he was not a brand like Jay Z is which partially has to do with other things non related to music.


Your missing the point. The point is he was a very popular MC and he was even in hollywood movies which is why his sudden murder was tragic and made a big deal. He was at the height of his career. "Juice" is a hip hop classic as well as "Poetic Justice (number one box office which equates to being a top block buster film)" both films 2pac starred the leading role in.


His first couple of albums sold well (for a rapper) but they were "gold" albums which technically isnt alot if you look at the top selling albums during the 90s which sold over 30-40 million albums. I think maybe his 3rd/4th album finally when platinum and his last one before died sold 4 million.

Just because his albums sold well doesnt necessarily mean (that is the ONLY thing he cared about) That obviously wasnt the only thing he cared about because there was a degree of creativity and artistic input in his music.
The Beatles were massively popular/marketed but they still have artistic albums. There is nothing wrong with any of those things but I dont take an artist seriously when that is the ONLY thing they care about. When they dont strive to grow and be creative. 2pac had grown as an artist/rapper. Jay Z has not shown ALOT of growth since his debut and has progressively gotten worse and worse.

Two things.

1. 2pac is NOT my idol...... I just simply disagree with your arguement that Jay Z is more influential and better than him.

2. When did I call 2pac underground? I have said this whole time he was one of the most popular rappers of his era lol BUT his music was better than Jay Z and he showed growth as a artist.


Jay Z doesnt seem to care about creativity or being artistic. He seems to care about money, hits, etc. How do I know? Its clear with the kind of music he makes.



Because his more funner to dance to?? lol

They both made the same kind of gimmick driven music but I prefer his but once again his not even in my top 10.

I also think he has more popular classics than Jay Z.


That wasnt the ONLY thing he cared about tough because he has songs that reflect that he cared about being artistic and creative as well.
Jay Z does not have alot of thought provoking conscious music because he does not care about that. He does not have alot of creative music because he cares more about fame, hits etc

Soulflower

Never denied the thug image was apart of his market. However, his childhood was not perfect and he did struggle.

Do you make all your opinions off of assumptions?

Ice Cube was actually apart of a gang and grew up in a bad area. (There is nothing fake about that)

Before Jay Z was even signed to a record label... Ice Cube was pioneering gangsta rap/street as a memeber of NWA. So dont get that twisted. He is criminally underrated.




Once again most of the rappers over the last 10 years in mainstream have done gangsta rap/street life. There isnt much depth in the mainstream rap music. Like I told you previously, Jay Z did not pioneer this. This was going on before Jay Z was even signed to a label! I suggest you listen to other rappers besides Jay Z lol Jay Z did not invent the type of rap that is out now.

He is more influential because there are more rappers that site him as an influence and he has more influential abums that has helped the progression of the genre such as 7 Day Thoery, Me Against The World etc

You keep talking about all these influences Jay Z . Nas, Krs One, DMX, 50 cent, The Game etc have all publicly criticized his music.




Your point?


Jay Z has made NUMEROUS conceited statements that indicates he thinks he as well as his music is more important than what it is.


I dont hate Jay Z. I just think he is overrated and there are more deserving MCs that deserves the credit that he gets who have actually done more for hip hop (community wise and music wise).

If you actually read my previous posts that was not the only reason I gave. He is more lyrically superior and a talented songwriter. He also was a much better performer.



Will definitly do.

Well if you actually listened to his music instead of making judgements about music you dont listen to, you will find that his music does not just consist of "the ghetto" and he actually discusses social, political, prejudice, love, life, success etc. You might would open your mind to a different perspective if actually listened to his music instead of being judgemental just because Jay Z is your favorite rapper. Just because you might not relate to his experiences or outlook doesnt mean you can not be open minded especially if you call yourself a hip hop fan. That is how and why hip hop was created it.

I seriously dont believe how you can expect for anyone to take your arguement seriously when you havent listen to any of 2pac music but yet want to make bold claims about his music.


Classic as in "timeless" music that regardless of the time period/era the song or album came out, it will still be relevant or listened to in the future.

Albums like Whats Goin On, Thriller, etc are classics.

What makes that album currently popular? How is it relevant today?

Actually it does if the media is proclaiming him to be the best rapper ever and he doesnt have a strong back catalogue of classics.

Before I even make my arguement, have you actually listened to these albums??


Definitly false. Do you listen to DMX? He would crush Jay Z in a free style battle. LOL NO QUESTION

He made the same kind of music Jay Z made but he actually can free style/battle... Jay Z cant.


That is not "hip hop" and you obviously have a misrepresentation of what hip hop is which makes your arguement even more pathetic and very ignorant.
Hip Hip is a subculture, way of life and is not just about "music" and "shooting guns".



LOL

When did I cal 2pac the greatest rapper????

I think you need to calm down because you stanning hard for Jay Z over there and are just making up things lol.

The point is 2pac had more depth and artistic merit to his music than Jay Z has which contradicts all the accolades he receives.

Jay Z has made numerous statements insisting his music is deep and that it is more important than what it actual is.


Actually, they originally were being discussed with the likes of Jay Z in the beginning of the discussion before it moved to just specifically Jay Z vs BIG/2pac. I compared NAS/Rakim to Jay to show that there are more talented rappers from Jay Zs era that are better to refute his "best rapper title". I was making a point that was related to the discussion so bringing them up was justified

Stronger as in more authenticity and creativity.


Why dont you listen to his music find out?



How are those 2Pac albums any more influential? Please give reasons behind your wild accusations. Are you trying to say Jay-Z isn't an international icon and that many rappers haven't cited him as an influence?

In a nut shell, they are more creative and artistic. They have better quality lyrics that reflect a theme throughout. The albums cohesive and allt his songs are different from one another. The production is experimental and fits the nature of the theme. The lyrics tell a story in cleaver ways such as through metaphors, imagery and descriptions that are creatively executed. He tackles complex and controversial issues and he manages to do it in a artistc way

How?

You havent proven your point either.



Make sure you read this post because in a couple posts down you argue you never implied this.

Its embarrassing because Tupac has more raw talent and the back catalogue. BIG has a stronger back catalogue as well. They have been the most iconic mainstream rap figures in rap music since their passing and they also have been the most cited rappers as influences within the last 10 years


From your previous response and based on this response you dont know what it means which is why I explained it.



Okay, so by you're definition, I was correct. Then why did you have to explain it, as I obviously already know. You just said so yourself.



I never said that he insisted he was a political rapper but he has made conceited comments that suggest his music is more complex than what it really is.





Yes but you obviously dont

and you did argue that he was better as well as consistent.

All his albums are the same crap just with different beats.

Nas and Rakim actually tackled complex issues and collaborated with different artists etc There word play is also more mature and creative unlike Jay Zs elementary rhymes.They have continued to push themselves artistically while Jay Z relies on what makes money.



How did you prove this?

The links that you gave showed the opposite of the point you were trying to make. O the irony...2pac actually sold more than him and his album debut at number one. Jay Zs album debut at number three and didnt even reach a million by the end of the year it was released and I am still lost with what explanations you gave besides it being more critically acclaim (which doesnt mean anything)

Which you are entitled to think but you have not given any evidence or support as to why you think he is. Arguing that he is more commercially has nothing to do with the QUALITY of his music or TALENT and constantly bringing about RN is not going to cut it because Nas was doing the same thing in 94 before Jay Z even got signed and was doing it better.


Contradiction.

You have belittle their music this entire time. In a post above you even insisted 2pacs music was just " lyrics about the ghetto"


First off
You dont even read anything YOU write lol as well as what I have written. You also dont listen to any of the music you are so informed about.


The fact that they are seen as laughing stocks isnt the point. The point is they make gangsta rap, contrived or not. You are insisting that te subgenre isnt prevalent anymore when it actually is
I addressed this already and you did not give a bunch of names or notable rappers


Please depart. You have not given any objective and open minded explanations for your opinions. You are beyond ignorant in your assumptions on what you think "hip hop" is. What makes this entire conversation funny is that you want to debate with me what hip hop is and you CLEARLY dont even know what it means lol The irony is most of what you THINK is hip hop really isnt because rap and hip hop are two different things. Degrading the genre to just "ghetto" or "shooting guns" is ignorant.

You have not supported why you think Jay Z is the best rapper and seem very close minded to different opinions and constructive criticism Jay Z gets. I have not bashed him or flamed him. I have gave constructive points and you clearly are not mature enough to engage in a respectful debate with someoen who disagrees with you. Adios

Surell

Maaanky pussed out.


























but seriously, this was getting a little circular. I will agree that Big and Pac definitely have more citations from their contemporaries as greats and as influences, and it is pretty visible (Rakim and Ghostface flow similar to BIG, punchlines are valued akin to Big's (though that is also a large trait of L), Pac's consistent consciousness and versatility and prolifiacy has become a staple of seriously considered Hip hop (Kendrick Lamaar, Immortal Technique, here I go Wayne (he got political if you like it or not)). How much weight their death's had on this is hard to determine, perhaps you could check interviews from their era and see how much their name came up among more famed peers or peers in general.

But Jay Z has stayed relevant, and where pop rap today is concerned has had great success and more transparent influence, lyrically, musically, probably even in how we think of a good mainstream rap album. His persona is closely connected to BIG's, though, so I think that is a good indicator of influence.

__________________

ThePhanastasio

Wait. You're not talking doseone? Then your paragraphs are irrelevant.

__________________

• Phish: Studio Discography Reviewed
• 100 Albums I Heartily Recommend
• My last.fm

Surell

not true because I said ghostface killah which might as well end the thread while we're at it.

__________________

14232949

I'm not usually posting away on Music Banter at 5 am in the morning.

Real Talk's arguments in a nut shell:

1. 2Pac is a 'political' rapper, this makes him better than Jay-Z. (As if preachy content validates one as a superior rapper)

2. BIG (who only had two albums; largely consisting of filler) has a better back catalogue than Jay-Z who has 11.

3. You can't say anything bad about 2Pac or BIG's records because they're "classics" (Classic is a term he chucks around as if it means something, the albums he is arguing for are 'classics' those he argues against aren't, despite garnering more critical acclaim)

4. If 2Pac and BIG didn't die, Jay-Z would not exist (Despite Reasonable Doubt debuting whilst both men were alive)

5. 2Pac was not as commercial as Jay-Z. (Despite 2Pac's albums outselling Jay's, making him more commercial if anything.)

6. Jay is a business man. (Neglects that Pac and BIG had the same marketing schemes in place to enhance their image/sales)

7. Nas & Rakim are relevant to the conversation that has nothing to do with them. (but no other rapper is.)

8. Jay-Z is less influential because more people follow his style of rap

9. 2Pac was a famous Hollywood actor (despite never appearing in any successful film) but he was all about the music. 'He probably would have went into acting' but he is a rapper. Jay-Z is not a rapper because he has a clothing line.

10. I don't like Jay-Z because he talks about money and partying. (But I like Notorious BIG who does the exact same)

11. I will find the facts to back up my ridiculous statements about Jay-Z like him stealing all of his lines from other MC's and him saying he is of a higher calling (But he is yet to provide any evidence)

12. Pac's albums are more influential. (Despite being provided with evidence on the contrary, he still denies this)

13. Jay-Z is not a 'real' hip-hop artist because in his later career had a go at other things. (Unlike 2Pac, who he had earlier brought up his acting career)

14. I like the 7 Day Theory.

15. The original statement Mankycaaant made was Jay-Z was "more influential" than BIG and Pac. Despite writing 3 novels now, he is yet to disprove this.

For these 15 'arguments' and more, I decided to opt out the conversation as we were not making any progress.

Cuthbert

Manky you're right about Biggie's albums. They're good in parts but too much nonsense on them. I'm sure I've mentioned that interlude of him fucking that woman. What's the point? Why can't rappers realise this sort of shit doesn't make for an entertaining listen? Even if they think it's funny, jokes eventually get tedious.