Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

It's certainly part of the reason, but you don't want to admit that part. And that's fine, I'm a monster. Actions have consequences, and I am not responsible for other peoples bad decision making. I have no problems with unexpected pregnancies, mentally/physically handicapped, inner city problems, etc.. but when you start purposefully having a 3rd, 4th, 5th kids (when you can barely take care of yourself) cause hey welfare and make yourself unemployable then you need to figure your own **** out.. It's not my responsibility or the governments to assist people who willfully contribute nothing to society. I'll leave that for the volunteer/non-profit, and whatever other groups form. I volunteer and do charity work because I care about other peoples well being, not because I feel some obligation to do so.

If that makes me a terrible person in your eyes, I'm okay with that, but your utopian 0 consequences view of how the world should exist is beyond impractical and incredibly naive. Are you the guy that doesn't show up for class, misses an assignment, and then expects full credit when you hand **** in late?

Originally Posted by Frownland

I think the biggest issue is how do we even find out who is abusing it and who genuinely needs it since at the level you describe, it all just comes down to intent which is incredibly difficult to determine. That, and people born into a culture of welfare thinking it is the only option and never consider alternatives. I have a friend who went through the foster system who's like this.

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I don't disagree with that at all, Frown. I'm not trying to make this into some simple "try harder" position.

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I knew this was coming.. It's absolutely reasonable to rely on your government for things, it's a two way street. I really meant that, it's not always possible for them to help and you should always rely on yourself to get things done before others.

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

It's a multi-faceted issue, and personal responsibility is one of many. Well, really we should discuss your usage of the word poverty, before I can stand behind that statement. If you're talking about the systematic history of inner city poverty I agree, but when we get into things like middle class families going bankrupt and unreasonable personal debt, I think my point holds true.

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Why do you think it needs to be instead of? Along side of is more like it.

Originally Posted by elphenor

I'd vote for Trump