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Originally Posted by JayJamJah
I don't want to argue semantics or talking points. But no nation had intelligence to the contrary of American intelligence. I don't care what Sean Penn or Guy Le**** from Ottawa think and more then they care what I think.
I do want to discuss ideas and phiolosophy and you have some of both I disagree with. You are exactly right in isolating the cause of the anti-Western sentiment. However I do think overthrowing a brutal tyrant like Saddam and staying to help rebuild the nation is a good way to build pro-western sentiment. Have you seen the videos of people embracing and welcoming US soldiers? Have you talked to a soldier who was there?
The greatest plight to middle eastern culture is not modern western culture but religion. There has been turmoil, decent, hostility's and and out and out lack of humanity in that region of the world forever, literally always as long as we have records. And all of their wars are based on a extreme religious fundamentals and God\Allah serving as motivation often times for both sides.
Also image and bigger picture aside the greater concern in the right now has to be the fact that Islamo-Facists want to kill us and that they only respond to violence. They are bullies if you tell them not to do something they do it. If you ask them nice not to do something they agree and then do it anyway. If you barter they take your chips and never hold up their own end. You have to kill them, because if you don't they will kill you. I really believe it's that simple, that black and white. Most things are given enough thought, it always starts with motivation, that'll help you paint the rest of the picture.
And we don't bomb innocent people, at least not intentionally.
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No, the rest of the world did not have intelligence that proved Bush to be wrong, what the rest of the world DID have was the sense to stay out of it and to condemn it until other options have been tried.
Yes, overthrowing Sadam did help, but don't kid yourself that the country is being "rebuilt" now. The country is still being ripped apart by way, and will be for years to come now since the two warring factions of the party are not even close to a reconciliation.
You're whole argument about iraq responding to nothing but violence is entirely unjustified, as iraq had made no actual attack on the US. In Afghanistan, the UN was on board with invading because the leader, Bin Laden, attacked the US. Iraq made no such attack on the US, and thus the UN did not sanction the invasion.
I think you are dead wrong about religion being the main culprit. The main culprit has always been the lack of education and the huge disparity between the rich and the poor in the middle east. Since the beginning rich landowners in the middle east have used religious fervor as a weapon to control the lower class and use them as puppets for their own personal gain. The rich who were in control of the middle east were always the worst oppressors of their own people. The kept them without access to education for hundreds of years, kept them in poverty, did nothing to spread health care, and as a result, they were left with an angry, bitter, and uneducated population that was ready to be whipped into a religious frenzy because their religion was all they had. If their leaders goaded them into a holy war, and told them that the other side was the reason they were suffering, they would do it.
Religion has never been the culprit, it was only the tool.