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Originally Posted by lucifer_sam
It isn't bad to be omnivorous, Erica. A healthy, balanced diet that includes meat products can lead to a rich and fulfilling life. It isn't bad to be vegetarian/vegan either, but justifying it by saying you don't want animals to die seems stupid to me. Animals will die everyday for a long time to come, with or without us to expedite their demise. Instead of trying to get people to stop eating meat altogether, why not focus on a different goal?
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You said my name! You said my name! It is hard for me to concentrate now, because LUCIFER_SAM SAID MY NAME!!!!!!! I never thought that would happen.
Okay. I will calm down now. Now you will probably never say my name again, because I overreacted.
Yes, I agree, lucifer_sam, that animals will die everyday. We humans die everyday, too. Yet trying to lengthen their lives so that they get to enjoy them as long as possible doesn't seem stupid to me, but kind. So, we have a difference of opinion there.
I feel trying to reduce the occurrence of people raising billions of animals to kill them at a young age is a very good goal...but it isn't my only goal. I feel anything that improves the experience of livestock animals is a good thing. Plus I have lots of other goals for changing society!
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This might be true today but it certainly wasn't as recent as a century ago.
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^Agreed.
Area of disagreement:
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Nevermind the fact that humans aren't biologically capable of taking advantage of the full caloric capacity of plant matter. We require proteins and complex carbohydrates plus essential amino acids which you can only find nominal amounts of in vegetables. Compare this to say, a cow, and you'll see that the cow can process cellulose (which comprises about 95% of the actual energy potential in plant matter) much better than we can and actually uses it to expend energy.
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Plant matter provides more than sufficient essential amino acids, protein in general, and complex carbohydrates; no animal products are necessary in the diet to obtain those, lucifer_sam. No, we can't digest cellulose, but plants are more than a sufficient source of protein and carbohydrates and we don't need to be able to digest every substance in a food for it to be a good food. Would you please tell me the source of your underlined information, because your statement surprised me.
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What I believe humans need to do is address lingering problems in the meat industry, even at the expense of productivity. The reason why there's so much opposition from the industry is that it will destroy profit margins for them and drive down demand so far that beef, bovine and poultry farmers will lose their livelihoods. What reason would they have to change their farming methods when most people simply do not care/are not aware? Whether there needs to be a twenty-first century Jungle written, I do not know, but it is obvious that there isn't much incentive for the industry to correct itself.
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I agree with everything you say above...except that this issue of factory farming vs. non-industrial farming isn't a lingering problem but one that is going to grow. The push for more industrial farming is increasing, and for the reasons you mention (it increases profits). Also, people's desire to eat meat (and ability to afford it) is rising around the world.
Once petroleum runs out and cheap grain is a thing of the past, factory farming will probably fade. When grain is expensive due to higher input costs, no one will be willing to feed it to all these confined hogs in Iowa, for example. Farmers will instead gain livelihoods by raising more plant matter for direct human consumption, with meat animals an additional but side source of income, rather than the main source.
Actually, your desire for free-range, less industrial methods of raising animals for meat (which I agree with), is similar to my desire for people not to use animals at all, because we both face this same problem, quoting you: "What reason would they (farmers) have to change their farming methods
when most people simply do not care/are not aware?"
There are only two reasons that I see for change in the livestock industry to occur: a change in people's ethical views, and a change in costs associated with industrial farming.
As people become more aware of the costs (financial and other) of industrial livestock farming, they may start to view it as unethical. Especially when they have to pay for it out of their own pocketbooks.
Lucifer_sam, would you please tell me again your main reasons for opposing industrial livestock farming? Are they mostly environmental reasons? Or are there some animal welfare reasons in there, too?