Scarlett O'Hara

I went off red meat for a while. It is murder really because you can't obtain the meat without killing the animal. It's not like animals go around committing suicide.

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FETCHER.

I completely agree, but murdering animals of a different species is completely normal. I mean you don't frown upon a lion killing a gazelle or any similar circumstances.

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lucifer_sam

It's not like animals in the wild go around dying of old age, either.

They get eaten too.

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first.am

Captain Awesome

And you can eat white meat without killing the animal beforehand? lamb, chicken, rabbit, fish how do you think they end up a plate? Do you think that they have some sort of fish cult where all the fish sacrifice themselves to us? Do rabbits and chickens kill themselves?

If red meat is murder, so is white. (btw I still say neither is 'murder')

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"If we're all merely players in a play on this great stage,
the problem is the script writers ain't on the same page,
I echo through the mountain when I'm singing in the air,
from my lab a lad with lavish lyrics living in his lair."


"Wake up and listen, hear what's not for the public's ears
Pinocchio poets played by profiting puppeteers"

Urban Hat€monger ?

Lamb isn't white meat

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VEGANGELICA

I agree, kayleigh, that the members of one species killing animals of another species *is* completely normal, and in the case of a lion is its only way to survive, brutal as that is for the gazelle: asphyxiation by having one's throat clamped by sharp teeth certainly can't be pleasant.

Yet since people can choose not to live that way, then people are left with the question: how do they decide whom to kill and eat? We each answer this question differently.

I feel that looking to other species and what is normal for them to help us decide what to do doesn't really work well because we aren't lions or tigers and we *can* survive without eating other animals.

Furthermore, it is completely normal for members of a species to kill each other. Does this mean we should do it? Murdering humans is completely natural. Cannibalism doesn't go against nature and has been practiced for a variety of reasons over the years (among Aztecs and among starving sailors drawing straws to see who gets eaten next). That doesn't mean we will all want to be cannibals. I can think of several good reasons for not being a cannibal.

Uh...about the 21-years-old business, kayleigh...I'm a teensy bit older than that, now that it's no longer April Fool's day and I have to tell the truth!

This is very true, Urban! Nutritionists view all mammal meat as red meat. Red meat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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lucifer_sam

This might be true today but it certainly wasn't as recent as a century ago.

Nevermind the fact that humans aren't biologically capable of taking advantage of the full caloric capacity of plant matter. We require proteins and complex carbohydrates plus essential amino acids which you can only find nominal amounts of in vegetables. Compare this to say, a cow, and you'll see that the cow can process cellulose (which comprises about 95% of the actual energy potential in plant matter) much better than we can and actually uses it to expend energy.

It isn't bad to be omnivorous, Erica. A healthy, balanced diet that includes meat products can lead to a rich and fulfilling life. It isn't bad to be vegetarian/vegan either, but justifying it by saying you don't want animals to die seems stupid to me. Animals will die everyday for a long time to come, with or without us to expedite their demise. Instead of trying to get people to stop eating meat altogether, why not focus on a different goal?

What I believe humans need to do is address lingering problems in the meat industry, even at the expense of productivity. The reason why there's so much opposition from the industry is that it will destroy profit margins for them and drive down demand so far that beef, bovine and poultry farmers will lose their livelihoods. What reason would they have to change their farming methods when most people simply do not care/are not aware? Whether there needs to be a twenty-first century Jungle written, I do not know, but it is obvious that there isn't much incentive for the industry to correct itself.

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VEGANGELICA

You said my name! You said my name! It is hard for me to concentrate now, because LUCIFER_SAM SAID MY NAME!!!!!!! I never thought that would happen.

Okay. I will calm down now. Now you will probably never say my name again, because I overreacted.

Yes, I agree, lucifer_sam, that animals will die everyday. We humans die everyday, too. Yet trying to lengthen their lives so that they get to enjoy them as long as possible doesn't seem stupid to me, but kind. So, we have a difference of opinion there.

I feel trying to reduce the occurrence of people raising billions of animals to kill them at a young age is a very good goal...but it isn't my only goal. I feel anything that improves the experience of livestock animals is a good thing. Plus I have lots of other goals for changing society!

^Agreed.

Area of disagreement:
Plant matter provides more than sufficient essential amino acids, protein in general, and complex carbohydrates; no animal products are necessary in the diet to obtain those, lucifer_sam. No, we can't digest cellulose, but plants are more than a sufficient source of protein and carbohydrates and we don't need to be able to digest every substance in a food for it to be a good food. Would you please tell me the source of your underlined information, because your statement surprised me.

I agree with everything you say above...except that this issue of factory farming vs. non-industrial farming isn't a lingering problem but one that is going to grow. The push for more industrial farming is increasing, and for the reasons you mention (it increases profits). Also, people's desire to eat meat (and ability to afford it) is rising around the world.

Once petroleum runs out and cheap grain is a thing of the past, factory farming will probably fade. When grain is expensive due to higher input costs, no one will be willing to feed it to all these confined hogs in Iowa, for example. Farmers will instead gain livelihoods by raising more plant matter for direct human consumption, with meat animals an additional but side source of income, rather than the main source.

Actually, your desire for free-range, less industrial methods of raising animals for meat (which I agree with), is similar to my desire for people not to use animals at all, because we both face this same problem, quoting you: "What reason would they (farmers) have to change their farming methods when most people simply do not care/are not aware?"

There are only two reasons that I see for change in the livestock industry to occur: a change in people's ethical views, and a change in costs associated with industrial farming.

As people become more aware of the costs (financial and other) of industrial livestock farming, they may start to view it as unethical. Especially when they have to pay for it out of their own pocketbooks.

Lucifer_sam, would you please tell me again your main reasons for opposing industrial livestock farming? Are they mostly environmental reasons? Or are there some animal welfare reasons in there, too?

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Dancing_Princess18

When I turned 18 I made the choice to become a vegatarian. My whole entire family laughed at me saying it was "stupid" and I wouldn't last a week. Well I have been going strong. I have written so many papers for school on why you should be a vegatarian that it's not even funny. Then they ask me "why" are you anti-huntiest and a vegatarian? Here is my answer:

I don't want to be the morgue of a dead animal. It is unhealthy to your body especally the 'red meats' and Dr. Oz reccomened to cut out meats from your diet. I've always been chubby and after cutting out meats, I have lost over 20 pounds and I am now thin. That and it isn't fair for animals to be slaughterd for food when it is sick to do that to a person. In my eyes animals are greater than people or atleast on the same level. I've gained more respect for animals then people because animals love you rich/poor, g ay/straight, black/white, brand-name clothing/cheap used clothes or wrong or right they don't care. They don't start rumors or back talk you. Most animals keep away from you and leave you alone unless they feel threatened. Hunters say animals need to be shot to reduce spred of dieases and over-population. Well please argue that to me whenever you fix the extremely over-populated world and people spreading dieases like Swine and common colds and illnesses. Shoot an animal for tresspassing, when people tresspass and rob...so shoot the people because its okay for animals? People argue back that you cannot compare animals to humans...they are right, animals are much smarter! If you are athiest then ignore this part but for believers in God, theres a huge section in there that states that animals are valued more. Who did God want saved during the Arch? 2 of each animal, and left the humans to be punished. I feel that animals are so innocient and humans just keep destroying this planet with their waste and hazard materials.

That is basically the speech I give my family each year they try getting me to eat meat and laugh at me. I believe in what I believe in and they believe how they do. There is no right for anyone to make fun of anyone for how they believe. I hand it though to Vegans, I couldn't handle not eating cheese or dairy products. This is hard enough

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Neapolitan

Animals do things out of instinct, a lion can not really make a decision of what it wants to eat based on whether or not it is ethical to eat another animal. I curious about the decision making process of the lion, but just the fact the "life" is transfered from the gazelle to lion. If the lion didn't eat then it would die, and because of the law survival of the fittest, it is the weaker gazelle that saves the life of the stronger gazelles and that in turn ensures the survival of the species. I look beyond what is happening at the moment the lion eating gazelle meat and question why nature works the way it does. What does it mean that life passes from gazelle to the lion? What does it mean that the gazelle save the life of the other gazelles? The lion could never know questions of life, about meaning of its life, or the meaning of the life of the gazelle. Maybe not in our culture because it isn't so spiritual, (and meat is almost presented as a manufactured product like McDonalds) but isn't there a deeper spiritual connection of a person and nature when they eat meat?

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