:beer:

Yeah, like Ken Scott did for Supertramp or Andy Powell did for Kate Bush. I mean, I'm sure she didn't come up with all those flute arrangements herself.

The producer having an influence on the sound is business as usual.

Not to the same degree at all. Have you seen the 'making of' documentary? Rock should have been given songwriting credits on every one of that album's tracks.

Again, not saying it's a bad thing - I like the album.

Scott's contributions to Supertramp were more in the sound department, not in directing them in what and how to play their instruments.

Have you read his book? It's a really great read.

http://www.amazon.com/Abbey-Road-Zig...ziggy+stardust

I stopped asking myself whether it was a sellout album a long time ago. Honestly, I don't really care anymore. I'm not a particularly big fan of the album, and I don't really like much that came after it, so does it really matter one way or the other?

Besides, if this failed attempt at a radio single on their second album doesn't show you that Metallica were never an underground-for-the-sake-of-being-underground band, then you need to reevaluate your evaluations.

God, I'd forgotten just how bad that song was.

The black album is decent, it just gets a bad rap because of how much they started sucking after it.

It's not a bad song, just a watered down version of the rest of the album. That chorus though... tasty.

Also because half the album is completely overplayed, and much of the rest shows the same dip in quality that plagued ...And Justice for All. I'll always love "The Unforgiven" though. They also need to quit playing "Sad but True" so much on the radio, as it's just a less badass version of "Harvester of Sorrow".

I could pick things about Metallica apart all damn day, like the rest of you...

My introduction to Metallica was from the very first album. I was hooked when I was 7, got older, realized Metallica wasn't as good as I once thought when I was a kid, still listen to them here and there but don't expect much from them with new material, haven't since The Black Album.

But. The Black Album when I listen to it now, it really did not hold its appeal well, like not even a little bit. The album is still decent, but man I find so much that really just turns me off to it. Any person that could get over themselves and the hype behind this band, could admit to that Metallica is just average, always have been. Sold a sh*t ton of albums though.

And on another frank, or honest note. People that use the term 'sell out' like some whore on the street. Any of you even know how that term even would apply to a band, and be completely accurate? Rhetorical question. My point is that I am fairly sure people don't know what the hell they are talking about when they claim a band has sold out. It annoys me. Most people complain a band has sold out just because they tweaked their sound, and it is laughable. Under the right circumstances that can apply in that context. But %99 of the time, it doesn't.

Use the term right. Too hard to ask of people?

I agree there's a dip in quality on the black album but AJFA is a pretty great album IMO.

When a band gives their music over to a record company to do with as they see fit, rather than just tweaking their sound to reach a wider audience. There's a difference between wanting to pay your bills and just giving up on making music that you have any desire to play. The underground doesn't have a pension plan after all.

I think of Motley Crue's post-Shout at the Devil albums as much more sellout than The Black Album. They were basically too whacked out on drugs and alcohol to care what they were putting out, and just used their music as a way to pay for their lifestyle.

Theater of Pain was just a tepid retread of SatD, and they weren't even trying on Girls, Girls, Girls. Dr. Feelgood was more of a return to them giving a ****, even if the production did kind of castrate it.

Agreed. I'd rather listen to the filler on AJfA, than the filler on The Black Album, and the first half is just phenomenal.