Moderators who can't recognize spam
 

Hello,

Apparently there is at least one moderator of this forum who has no idea what spam is. Therefore, being the helpful person I am, allow me to explain.

from Wikipedia: Spam is the use of electronic messaging systems to send unsolicited bulk messages, especially advertising, indiscriminately.

from Google: Irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet to a large number of recipients

Spam is therefore NOT purposely searching out a community of music lovers that you believe may be able to answer your question, then asking that question in the appropriate sub-category of that forum that deals with the relevant style of music.

I suppose it's possible that the question violated some rule of the forum, but seeing as that I read all the stickies at the top as well as the " MusicBanter Forum Rules UPDATED 08/14/12" post before posting, that rule would have to be pretty obscure and therefore not worthy of a lifetime ban!

but identifying that post as "spam" (which was the reason given for the ban) is pure unquestionable incompetence on the part of the moderators here.

In closing, I would like to point out that the majority of people who come to a forum for the first time are looking for something, usually information of some sort. If you go around banning everyone who starts out their first post by asking a question or asking for help from the community, you will be turning away countless people who could end up contributing to your community

P.S. I'm sure this post will be deleted by a moderator, but hopefully it's the same moderator that deleted the post before, and he reads it first and learned something.

If your account was banned in error we certainly apologize but you have to understand we get a lot of spam and other forms of solicitation here. We try to manage it as best we can but as with anything there are bound to be some mistakes here and there. You could have simply asked about it here nicely sans the insults and one of the mods would have been happy to help you. Anyway, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're just having a bad day or something. What was the title of the thread that was deleted and what section was it in?

Thanks for your reply.

just read this thread: musicbanter.com/announcements-suggestions-feedback/65209-does-any-one-know.html

I see the problem now. Not only do the moderators of this forum not understand the word "spam," but they also don't know the meaning of the word "promotion." Therefore the following rule is interpreted in a very strange and draconian way that I never would have expected before posting:

I'll just go find a forum where they A) understand basic English vocabulary and B) actually respect musicians (I know, pretty rare in forums about music!)

P.S. Yes, I am offended at being called a spammer and pissed off, as I imagine a lot of people end up being around here the way this place appears to be run.

I don't know who it was that dealt with your thread, but not one of us would allow you to dump your link on us and leave. We are a community foremost, and if you would like our attention, contribute to it first.

After three months residency, members are welcome to share links.

Once again, I'd be happy to help you if you'd give me a little information about the post that was deleted. What was the content of your post?

I can't seem to find the stub of the thread in question to have a look myself. How long ago was your thread removed, which forum was it in, and what was its title? Any luck Jansz?

Hi Janszoon,

I appreciate what I perceive to be a sincere desire to help. It is the case, however, based on the thread I posted about above, that my previous post seems to have violated the perception of the rules by many around here, though not the letter of the rules, even though it was not a thread for self promotion but an honest question about my music that I am unable to answer myself and I have been struggling with for almost a week now. In any case, if that's the prevailing attitude on these forums, it is unlikely the post will result in any useful responses, so might as well just let it die.

I appreciate your attitude. I find the attitudes of several other members of those community including the one who posted right above you and several of the members posting in the other thread I linked to above to be quite unpleasant, however. Specifically there seems to be a tendency to assume right away that other people are wrong or bad, and so I have a bit of a bad taste in my mouth about these forums because of the whole situation, so I think it best to just move on. I might revisit here at some point in the future.

Thanks.

If you'd come to us calmer, I'd have chosen my words more carefully. The reality of our community is that we see many more accounts drop links in threads, never to be seen again than we do people who even attempt an introduction thread. It states in the rules that self promotion isn't allowed until three months of membership have passed. It's really not all that long to a contributing member. Time flies here when people participate.

I'm sorry that we, and our forum got off on the wrong foot, but hopefully you can see why these rules are in place and why they are interpreted as they are. You're welcome to stick around if you've any interest in our community left. :)

I don't know, I might stick around. I was enjoying reading through the board for an hour or so before I found myself suddenly perma-banned and unable to access anything and had to create this new account to complain about it.

Deleting the thread and sending me a PM as to why would definitely have avoided this whole situation. I maintain that there is no way a reasonable person could mistake my post for spam.

So far you've been asked 3 times to explain to us what your post actually was, and have not done so. If the moderators knew what you'd posted, they'd be able to explain to you whether it really did contravene a forum rule or not, and everyone would be happy.

Or, to use your own terms - Answering this question from the first post: Would definitely have avoided this whole situation. I maintain that there is no way we can discuss whether a reasonable person would mistake your post for spam, unless you tell people what the post was in the first place.

yeah man don't FUCK with us MAN just TELL THE TRUTH. i swear on my children's graves so help me jah i will destroy you if you try to stop everyone from being happy!

Every forum has a different standard. They all come to a general agreement to what the perspective of the ruling is, and run the forum accordingly. That's how policies are established. It's not whether the perspective is wrong or right, but it doesn't mean they can't be open to it if you present a good reason. That's a big reason why mods have to be open to PMs.

Spam is subjective, it's junk. So it's decided what constitutes its relevancy.

If you're attm, or previously were, I know what you're talking about, and you were warned at least twice about putting links for advertising in your sig. The fact that you a) didn't understand or b) didn't agree that this WAS advertising is irrelevant, as it was pointed out to you. Judge Dredd once warned that ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it, but you were told what the law was and went back to breaking it (putting in the advertising again. Twice.)

You then complained that you didn't realise what we regarded as "advertising" or "promotion", or what was or wasn't allowed. I then posted the relevant part of the rules where it clearly shows and delineates what that is. I think that was my only contribution to the thread, along with a rather incredulous comment to the effect that I couldn't see how you could be confused by very clear rules. If that was seen as rude, I apologise but really I fail to see how anyone could take it as such.

All of this is meaningless of course if you were not attm in a previous life (with an avatar of some guy with headphones on, I think drumming?), but I think you were.

That being the case, it wasn't just one infraction, it was several, and they would have come across as deliberate and perhaps arrogant, like putting back in something you had been told to leave out after it had been taken out. Sort of like someone saying "put that down you're not supposed to have that" and you taking it up again. A second time they say it and a second time you pick it up. See how the person telling you to put it down would quickly get annoyed and fed up, having better things to do?

Rules are there for a reason. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with them, that doesn't change them, allow you to break them or decide to interpret them in a way that allows you to circumvent them. And as you said yourself, had YOU PM'd a mod instead of making a thread, this probably could have been sorted out. You could have taken a proactive stance instead of a reactive one, and then putting all the responsibility for your situation on the shoulders of the mods for not talking to you personally in private. Nothing was stopping you making the first move. It's unfair to blame the lawmakers just because you don't like the laws, and what's sauce for the goose, may the force be with you and the road rise before you etc.

No, this member is not attm.

Well follow our rules and you won't get banned, it's not rocket science.

He just had a different interpretation of the rules than 99% of other people here do.

Well he can fuck off. *drunk*

I can understand your feeling offended at being called a spammer when your deleted thread, from your description of it, was simply a question about your own music that you hoped someone would answer and was not an attempt to promote your music:

I recommend that you post your question (if you still wish to) in the songwriting section down in the Artists Corner (which is really a horizontal band, but, oh well ;)) if you didn't before, midnight_spree. I think your question would be more likely to receive helpful feedback there, because I'm guessing that people who are interested in song structure/composition issues and genre technicalities are more likely to look at that section. They will probably be able to tell when a question is an honest request for help or feedback rather than just a way to broadcast the musician's songs. (I like it when musicians are here to share their songs, but I may be in the minority. :))

I've also noticed the tendency of some people at MusicBanter to assume right away that newcomers are wrong or bad. I do feel in general this forum repels quite a few musicians and others who might have enjoyed their stay if they had felt more welcomed. I wish moderators would consistently take an "innocent until proven guilty" stance toward members with respect to the rule against joining just to promote their own music or someone else's...and even if the person is "guilty," still treat her or him respectfully.

* * * * * * * * * * *

Moderators, this thread and Vanilla's post before mine remind me that I want to raise a concern with all of you, which is that some of the rules are not enforced consistently or even followed consistently by moderators themselves, such as our site's first rule:

• While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, trolling, purposeless inflammatory posts or members deliberately provoking another member into committing any of these acts.

It often seems to me that the main job of moderators here is to delete posts that contain advertisements, and I can imagine that is a big job. I see the clean-up in action and do appreciate it. Using MusicBanter to banter about music in a substantive way would be much harder if the posts of people who join only to advertise or promote weren't cleaned up. So, thank you, Mods, for that.

Yet I feel the occasional nasty comments by moderators and some members are much more harmful to the community than "spam" is. When I see moderators are breaking one rule while telling people to follow another, I no longer trust any of the moderators because I don't trust them to police each other.

For example, Vanilla, I wish you wouldn't tell midnight-spree that he can **** off. If you really *are* drunk when you are posting, then I think it would be better if you wait until you aren't, because I feel you are violating the first rule of MusicBanter by being intentionally rude and hurtful: "We will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, trolling, purposeless inflammatory posts."

Midnight_spree's feedback is actually a good thing because it shows she or he has hope that the concern will be listened to and has not given up hope that the moderators will be fair and decent.

I'm sorry but tl;dr.

What does tl;dr mean?

What does that mean: tl;dr? Just wondering...

First in first served sucka.

It means too long; didn't read. :D

Here you go, I shortened the post for you:

* * * * * * * * * * *

Moderators, this thread and Vanilla's post remind me that I want to raise a concern with all of you, which is that some of the rules are not enforced consistently or even followed consistently by moderators themselves, such as our site's first rule:

• While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, trolling, purposeless inflammatory posts or members deliberately provoking another member into committing any of these acts.

It often seems to me that the main job of moderators here is to delete posts that contain advertisements, and I can imagine that is a big job. I see the clean-up in action and do appreciate it. Using MusicBanter to banter about music in a substantive way would be much harder if the posts of people who join only to advertise or promote weren't cleaned up. So, thank you, Mods, for that.

Yet I feel the occasional nasty comments by moderators and some members are much more harmful to the community than "spam" is. When I see moderators are breaking one rule while telling people to follow another, I no longer trust any of the moderators because I don't trust them to police each other or themselves.

For example, Vanilla, I wish you wouldn't tell midnight-spree that he can **** off. If you really *are* drunk when you are posting, then I think it would be better if you wait until you aren't, because I feel you are violating the first rule of MusicBanter by being intentionally rude and hurtful: "We will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, trolling, purposeless inflammatory posts."

Midnight_spree's feedback is actually a good thing because it shows she or he has hope that the concern will be listened to and that the moderators will be fair and decent.

I'm going to respond here to the request that moderators send PMs about deleted threads.

I'm not going to do this, simply because I don't have the time to PM as many people in a day as that would require, and I also don't have the time or energy to argue with every single one of them about whether or not they should be allowed to post their link, which ultimately will result in them leaving, or behaving in a bannable manner anyways.

Bah! Curse your hide to Hades, Rjinn, or Rjinnx, or whatever damnable interweb nomenclature you're using! I spent seconds on that reply, and you beat me to it by two minutes! Do you know who I am?? I have the highest-paid lawyers and this whole contempible town in my pocket! We'll see who eats whose shorts.... what do you MEAN, Smithers, this intercom is ON?? You mean they all heard me... ahhh, haaa, now let's not be hasty, people... it was all Smithers' fault! Sorry but there's only room for one person in my personal escape pod! Well, yes, technically there are two seats, but I like to put my feet up! Toodles! :wave: (why isn't there an emote-icon for a shaking fist? Happy face indeed! We'll just see about that...)

lulz

:D

Seconds that could have been used to make and invest more $$$$$$$!!!

The intercom is on? Ahoy-hoy!

(sigh) Yes I am fabulously wealthy. But you know, I'd give it all up for just a little more....

Bobo?

http://cdn.static.ovimg.com/episode/55536.jpg

I'm sure you would, but i'm sure pretty much all the people on here would rather this stuff was gotten rid of as not to clog up the forum instead.
I'm not sure you even realise how much of this stuff gets deleted every day.

There used to be a promotions section. the community as a whole voted for it to be gotten rid of because it just encouraged people to spam.

The rules are this way because thats the way the members here wanted them.

We get rid of hundreds of 'Midnight_spree's' every week. Just because one decides to come back and complain doesn't mean they have a point or a genuine concern.

I understand your point, Vegan, but I don't think you understand the scale of the spam we receive and subsequently delete.

You may think of any members that sign up here, discuss, mention or link their music within their first few posts while genuinely doing so without intention to exclusively spam our forum. You may think of the existence of these members and have concerns that we would treat these members the same as everyone else, spammer wise, and you may think that this not fair. I understand that.

However the fact of the matter is that a lot of accounts are made here every day, every week, every month and I would say that the vast majority of accounts made are spam accounts. When a new account is made I will go and check their first few posts. If their very first action as a member of this forum is to talk about their music, name their band, ask for feedback on their music and try to get you to click an external link or google their band name then I will delete their posts and ban their account. 99.9% of the time that member will have been correctly banned and on the rare occasions that I would be wrong, I would apologise If I felt it were necessary.

What is the alternative though? Should we air on the side of caution? Should we give these members a day or two so we can be completely, 100% certain that they arent also here to contribute to the forum? Personally, no, I dont think we should. This would lead to a huge number of threads from people who only want you to listen to their music, who only want to use our forum for this reason and if we didn't clear them out right away then it would only promote this on our site and lead to an even greater number of users signing up for the very same reasons. If we did this and adopted your attitude or took your approach then, with all due respect once more, we and yourself would spend way too much time attempting to engage members in conversation when they a) dont care aslong as you click their link and b) may never even see your post because once they have spammed they may never even log into their account ever again.

I trust Urbans judgement. He's been here long enough to know a spammer when he sees one. If he had banned an account for spam and then realised he had made a mistake I'm sure he would come clean about it and put it right. Even if it is the case that this member did not come here to spam, they claim, then they could have made another accoun and messaged a moderator to straighten things out. Coming back with an attitude like this isnt gonna help to convince me that they were here for a genuine reason to begin with or had anything to contribute to the forum I am trusted to moderate and use my judgement to keep in order. Basically if it is possible for a moderator to think that you may be a spammer, then you obviously didn't choose your first few posts well.

I may not have made the decision to post what Vanilla posted but believe me, I was thinking it. I'm sorry if this member was one of the 0.01%, and I assure you that I use my judgement on this forum in a genuine attempt to be as fair as I possibly can be, but for the reasons I gave above and for their overall attitude and etiquette, I share her sentiment. And I don't feel bad about it.

If the mod team were to take just 3 days off from deleting any spam, the forum would look like this.

Nobody interested in talking about music, just endless threads of "come listen to my band and tell me how good it is!" and that's not what this forum is for. This isn't a conduit for you to use to gain exposure, it's for music nerds to congregate and discuss which is Radiohead's best album. There's a plethora of websites for you to use to get exposure, but only a small sliver of them dedicated to honest discussion. I like to think that MusicBanter is the top Google hit for music forums because of quality.

I can only imagine what this "solution" would be like on my old forum (an REM fan forum), where the majority of spam that I and other mods had to delete daily was grotesque porn stuff.

Right so one comment about a BANNED spammer and suddenly I'm unfit to moderate? Get real, the spam we as a team have to get rid of in our own time is ridiculous but yet no one is complaining. And honey, you can complain all you like but there's nothing wrong with the system.

Mojo, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who felt that.

I too feel that it's a moderators job to abide by the rules he or she enforces and to keep an eye on other moderators that they do the same. To me it's obvious that the more you break the rules, the less fit you are to moderate.

So it goes without saying that I think moderators should be more careful than the rest of us when it comes to dishing out insults. When I first read this thread, I have to say I thought Janszoon did a fantastic job as a moderator, being diplomatic and approachable, treating the concern seriously, taking time to write proper replies etc. I and others notice this and it reflects positively on the whole mod team. Vanilla's contribution to the thread, however, is little else than making the mods seem a little worse (opposite of Jans' approach, being dismissive, undiplomatic, offensive).

I really like you Vanilla and I'm sorry to offend you, but it's how I feel. I'm not saying you shouldn't be a moderator, only that you should not forget to also moderate yourself.

edit :

I'm not just thinking of the "he can **** off" comment in this thread. Erica addressed a concern which you initially responded to like this :

Which is dismissive, unapproachable and very disrespectful when someone turns to you with what they think is a legitimate concern.

I'm going to speak as an experienced moderator of a big forum site, it was paramount to be an example of our rules to all members. However, I may see the difference being a Namco business/help/product advertising site to a general site for music, so strictness was unwavering.

Honestly I can understand the frustration of members constantly questioning and arguing over decisions and actions, it can be hell. However we always were approachable enough to respond reasonably without any aggression and in a calm collective manner.

Moderators here at least don't have double standards. They may not be strict, but I don't see them treating others' responses differently than the way they treat theirs. So far, I see this forum being run efficiently with very little loss of control. That's the most important thing.

I think this is important on any forum as, in my experience, the way moderators behave has a very strong influence on general forum culture and how community members interact with each other.

Also, I think behaving in a thoughtful, calculated, diplomatic manner garners respect - likely for the right reasons too.

(Climbing on white charger... where's me lance? Oh, there he is! Come on, Lance!) :)

While most of you are quietly berating Vanilla for her response --- and I agree, it was not appropriate, particularly in a somewhat flammable atmosphere as was the case here --- I would like to point out that in my view it was a RARE lapse in judgement, which Vanilla will probably agree is the case, and she should not be taken too much to task over it. We all know how good a mod she is, and one little slip should not call into question her fitness for the job she has already proven without arguement that she can carry off in a fair yet strict manner, always being mindful of the feelings of others.

Plus, she said she was drunk. Who hasn't done something they don't regret while under the influence? (How did I get this traffic cone? I wasn't even OUT last night??) :confused:

So basically, it's one mistake and I think should be accepted as such. It's not like she's forever going around doing things like this and regularly abusing members, new or old. Personally, I'd trust her as I would any of the mods here, comment notwithstanding.