We've got a major problem...
 

This forum needs help. Badly.

Every new member that has something to contribute eventually stops showing up. There is nothing but drama. Some people like this...but I (along with many others) am not a dramatic person. I want to talk about music. Sure, I can go to the latest hipster blogs and find out what they think is good...but I came here because this site took things deeper. There were members here with a deep knowledge of music matched only by their passion for it. I would find 2 or 3 memorable albums I had never even heard of every time I logged on...minimum. Most of those members are gone.

The holdouts like myself and most of mod team along with those rare new members that for some reason are still around are stuck here wondering what to do. Wondering why this happened. This forum has turned into nothing but a drama filled cliquey bitchfest and frankly, it disgusts me. If I had just joined, I would have just left like all the other new members that take one look and turn the other way. But I'm invested. I remember how much I used to enjoy coming here. I would like to think there is something we can do.

This forum works best when there are equal parts members with a DEEP knowledge of whatever music they like best and inexperienced members ready to drink it up. The drama was there, sure, but drama fueled by passion for music is something I can tolerate. That dynamic is completely lost. This isn't just another cry for "waaah...this forum sucks now"...it has truly hit rock bottom. If the cliques continue NO ONE will want to join. So my question is...

How do we fix this? How do we attract those quality members without scaring them away?

And how do we get people who just like to stir **** up to shut the **** up?

I think a bold and positive step has been taken, very, very recently in that regard.

That said - I think what we desperately, desperately need is some sort of hook to remind people who do come here only to frequent the lounge and the shoutbox, that there are good things to read in the other forums. I'm a prime offender - I spend almost all of my time here in the lounge or shoutbox, purely because I've become comfortable checking those places and leaving other stuff unread. Nothing drags me away from there as I just use the lounge and shoutbox to get people discussing music in plug.dj sessions, the rest of the forum for me is relatively untouched, even talk instruments, since Mr.Dave and RezZ were the only other regular posters there and have left it to itself for a long time.

That said, the shoutbox is definitely about to get a lot better, and that was a really good "hook" way back when, before it became the cliquefest you describe - it might simply be time to start talking more music in there, and less harry potter, gender politics, self-righteousness, mockery of the unaware and fetishes.

As in just about every case, recognising the problem is the first step. I personally see that I have contributed, in part, to various let's call them as you say dramas, and have concluded that some times the best option is the "ignore" button. Now I'm not saying that's always the thing to do and it's not the only option, but I've tried staying out of fights, ignoring (not with the button, just not responding to) people I don't get on with or who don't get on with me, but eventually after some effort have found the only way to address the problem was to hit the "Ignore".

Of course, you can't have everyone doing that otherwise nobody will be able to talk to anyone! ;) So how to proceed? Hmm, I don't know. Well, let's see, just throwing this out here, see who thinks what of it: how about, I don't know, acting like adults instead of children?

I'm serious. Much of the cliquey behaviour you're describing -- correctly --- here duga is down to the old playground "my mates against your mates" mentality, so that if one person gets slighted all their "gang" retaliate and suddenly there's almost a forum war going on. Then the original "offender" has his or her gang weigh in on their side, and off we go again.

People should be able to work out their differences peacefully and without recourse to stupid namecalling, one-liners, smileys, GIFs and memes. Sometimes all it takes is for one person to explain to the other that they took them up wrong, and as Elton said, sometimes sorry does seem to be the hardest word. Nobody will admit they were wrong, nobody will apologise. People go on and on exhibiting the same unacceptable behaviour, encouraging others to do the same, and the whole vicious circle turns.

This will sound a really stupid idea, but in the absence of any other ideas, what would anyone think of a sort of "grievances committee", maybe a thread where two people with a problem could put their case and members, either random or more likely some sort of, for want of another word, jury, could rule on it, then whatever was decided the two members would have to abide by, on pain of a ban, and maybe permaban if they kept ignoring the decision.

Something very simple: one member keeps calling the other gay. He/she doesn't mean it but the other one gets annoyed. Rather than this escalate the "committee" rules member 1 should not call member 2 gay. If member 1 does, he or she is banned. Yeah, I know, idiotic, but I can't think of anything else.

Really, people shoudl not need to be policed though. Simple human common courtesy should be a byword of this forum, and really everyone should treat people here as they would were they to meet them in real life.

Not that they will, but it's a good maxim, if only people would follow it.
Of course, another solution for an infraction of the decision of the committee could be a "group ignore". Have you ever heard of sending someone to Coventry? Basically everyone ignores them for a set time --- not long, say a day, maybe and perhaps they might get the idea?

Yeah, all bad ideas but who's coming up with anything better?

I don't think an emphasis on moderation is needed. We have a great moderation policy that gives people so, SO many chances to not **** up already - if someone gets banned here they either damn well deserve it or they've been given so many chances to stop straddling that line, that patience has run thin - look at how long hermione lasted for, hhbh (despite the number of members, even of the mod team, who ****ing hate the guy), even dirty and boobs were given tons of chances (And in hhbh's case, he's still getting away with a ton of ****) and people to this day will defend many of them.

What breaks down a clique mentality isn't an application of authority - it's a necessity to make people friends with each other, not just mutual enemies with the mod team.

There are a number of people on both sides of this argument who aren't interested in the role they've played in a problem they've observed, and until we are open to examining our own contributions, or lack thereof to the current attitude of this forum, there will not be a positive change in activity.

Frankly, I don't want to talk about it or to try and solve it, because I don't believe people are interested in listening. More than anything change takes energy, acceptance, and patience, and I no longer feel I have these for this forum.

I agree, GB.

My main goal with this thread is to bring to attention how a lot of us have felt recently and to let the members hash it out. Sadly, with this emphasis on cliquishness the mods have been made into our own clique and a lot of people have taken to making us the scapegoats. We mod just like we always have.

So I would prefer if we help the discussion along but for the most part stay out of it. I honestly want to hear some ideas from regulars.

And yes, even if you have a problem with the way we mod. Just don't bitch about deleted posts anymore...we do that out of necessity and everyone just needs to deal with it privately through PM. If I see one more complaint about that I am going to flip a ****.

And a lot of people have felt this way as well.

I'm almost there...but seriously, I used to really look forward to logging on. SOMETHING can be done, right?

The last month and a half or so, my routine has consisted of the following. I return from work. I unlace my shoes. I look at my computer, and think to myself. Do I want to log on to MB? No, **** it, I don't need that. I refuse to go online just to be made angry. And then I pick up a novel and put my emotions and energy into that instead.

And no, I don't believe anything can be done, because I still see major players in this forum's current climate completely missing the role they've played in it--refusing to see it--and until they open up their perspectives and ask themselves what they have done and what they can do better, I don't even want to try.

I just think people who really care about MB as a place to discuss music need to take some kind of pledge to avoid posting in political or other drama-inciting types of threads, myself included. Once upon a time I used have that as a personal policy because why on earth would I want to have those kinds of discussions on a music forum. I'm not exactly sure when I got off track with that but I'd like to go back.

Arguments are inevitable in discussion. The problem is how they are dealt with. This has not been done adequately for months. By anybody.

I actually think Lounge-y type posts put the "Banter" in Music Banter and I enjoy the humor and camaraderie of those threads like Member Picture Gallery, Snog/Shag, the sports topics and so forth. I think that a balance can be struck with music topics as well. As for the drama stuff, yeah I think we are better off leaving that behind. It's inevitably going to pop up from time to time but I think an effort could be made to patch them up and move ahead. http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/im...s/grouphug.gif

I'm not claiming arguments aren't inevitable. What I'm suggesting is that, on a music site, it's healthier if the arguments are about music rather than hot button topics that have absolutely nothing to do with music.

I'd argue that there's also a few members around who don't seem to get the idea of discussion.

The first two posts in this link are kind of my position on it - http://www.musicbanter.com/indie-alt...zer-why-3.html

I'm not singling out Ki here - plenty of other people do this, and I find it selfish, hollow and disingenuous.

Simply put, people, particularly senior members, or people who want to "turn the forum around", need to take into account the following -

1 - Your opinion is your opinion. Nobody can take away your right to have it.
2 - You can voice it whenever you like
3 - If you choose to voice it, you're doing more than simply holding that opinion. You're placing that opinion into an open field where others can make of it what they will, and expecting them to take it seriously.
4 - If you're placing your opinion into that field, you should do so in the knowledge or expectation that you will be expected to explain it, justify it, and/or defend it if someone disagrees.
5- If you refuse to explain, elaborate upon, justify, or defend the opinion you placed into the open discussion, then you simply are not contributing to that discussion, in fact you actively detract from it by diverting the efforts of others into the black hole and void of debate that your opinion subsequently forms.

It is everyone's right to have an opinion. It is nobodies right to expect others to lay down their opinions in the face of your own, for the sake of not creating a fuss or offending you by asking you to debate with them or elaborate. Say what you want to say, but say it with the conviction and confidence of being able to hold up your end of the bargain that is "discussion", else don't say it, merely continue to think it.

Debate, disagreement, even argument, are not evil and not to be avoided at all costs. They're healthy methods for refining and rethinking positions, thoughts, and opinions. They're the basis of what we discuss here. If you're not prepared to get into those things with others, you're on the wrong website. Hell, you're on the wrong TYPE of website.

I feel what's making this place less and less interesting is the lack of new members joining up and staying around with a real passion for music. New members with something new and different to contribute and actually investing their time doing it. I'm not quite sure why this is, people use the internet differently today than they did five years ago and I guess most people would rather spend their time on Facebook or Twitter rather than on a forum. It's not just MB though, the music section in my other main forum has noticeably declined over the past few years both in the quality and quantity of posts. It's almost like all new members are signing up here either to spam or just dick about and kill time.

We also can't rely on the same old members to deliver the goods constantly. Quite a lot of long standing members here are adults with jobs and other important commitments and they might not have much time to contribute like they used to. Come September I might not even be around anymore myself due to other priorities.

I think the main focus should be on finding a way to attract interesting new members and keep their interest in this place. Unfortunatly this could be difficult due to the lack of development of this place by the admins and also the attitudes of some members here.

I think that the environment is hostile towards new members, or at the very least it isn't fertile enough for them to develop into regular posters. That isn't just the fault of the people signing up though, that's our fault as a community as well.

@GB

To be fair, I wasn't being selfish or anything of that sort, I was expressing my thoughts toward your initial comment about the people commenting on how the band sucks. I think it's perfectly natural for those who don't like a band to express that even without giving any sources or information, however in my rebuttal toward your original comment, I stated that I personally wouldn't look information up about a band that I don't like, it's not like I was saying everybody works that way, it was a personal opinion which you say is what people should be doing around here. I know you weren't singling me out, but seeing my name in your post causes me to respond to you. And people will always create discussion about a band whether they like it or hate it even if it's not the people who originally stated they don't like the band with no info. And again, I personally said I wouldn't really go in depth about a band I don't like. Again, "personally".

As far as this thread goes, I was part of the drama when I started, but i've learned to stay out of it, which is why I usually only post in my journal nowadays or in one of the lounge threads if i'm feeling up to it.

Its cool brah.

I was just after editing my post to mention that. But there's always been an element of being harsh and unreceptive to noobs here. It was probably even worse a few years ago, I even put up with some crap when I first joined but that didn't put me off the place. But perhaps we do need to make the place more interesting in order to attract interesting members, but it's just hard to find the motivation and time anymore to do that. It could be a chicken and egg situation.

As someone who has tried to do interesting things dozens of times here with mixed results, you're absolutely right. Anybody who wants to make change or benefit from the changes others make has a responsibility to pay it forwards and participate in order to earn the environment they wish they had, but the internet is not a place of energy and patience. It is where you come when you've run out and you just want instant gratification.

I've only been here since February and I felt welcome pretty much from the start

It is of course entirely relative, but the reality is that we ban or lose exponentially more accounts than we have join us and stay each year.

This basically, except in regards to the music forums as well, which more and more often become filled with the type of discussion you're referring to. I've seen too many examples during my recent return of things like members commenting on one misused word in an otherwise constructive on-topic post, changing the entire subject, and inviting other posters who have no interest in the original topic to join the argument to back-up their friends and further warp the discussion.

I think that's true of pretty much every forum on the internet.

I've been saying this stuff for a very long time.

I do not have all the answers, but I think it starts with this:
Make tore head moderator (his duties determined by him) and enforce all the rules he created. For threads that start going off-topic in a hostile way, the mods need to not personally participate in that and instead quickly warn and then delete and at least temporarily lock.

Also, with the exception of tore, allow members to vote mods out, and let them vote mods in, subject to at least tore's approval.

Follow that advice, and I'm likely to resume starting (good) threads, the lack of which is helping to suck life out of the forum.

I used to use this site for all of my music needs, but I go on last.fm, and occasionally plug with people to get my fix. There really isn't any point for me to post much on the forum anymore. Why? Because either I've already discussed the bands I like with people, or I will end up making a thread no one will ever reply to. I'm more known know about my little bitchfits about my life then what I actually listen to. As far as new members go, there was a member named Andrew that I almost instantly took a liking to, he actually turned me onto Iceage, and he was fairly interesting, but I'm not surprised he stopped showing up to MB. Facebook is also one of the reasons I don't need to come here to discuss something new in the music world, some of the groups I'm a part of always post stuff I like, notably Spacemantra and Dead TV. The more singularly genre oriented groups are wankfests though, but if you end up finding a facebook group with an eclectic group of people you will always find something. So, why am I still here? I have no idea.

I think there's an over-reaction to how "unwelcoming" this forum is to newcomers. There are a few people who make new members lives hard, but thats the nature of any forum since the dawn of time. The question is how prominent and important are those members and does that make it seem like other posters doing the same is approved of, when in reality it isn't, we're simply extending greater forgiveness to the oldtimers?

All of that said, I think discussing it may be a bit premature, since those people aren't problems in themselves and censoring them for some "potential" image problem that might occur should a newbie not grasp that posters character correctly - censoring them for that would just be terrible policy.

What *might* help though, is if members - NOT MODS! MEMBERS! YOU GUYS! were a bit more proactive in letting arguments happen, but keeping them from spiralling out of control. Rather than letting an argument go from 0-10 then close, it might be beneficial to try and allow a level of heated debate, and either cool themselves down, or allow the mods to attempt to intervene if it goes beyond, say, a 7 or 8 for more than a few posts. If the discussion is unsalvageable, THEN close the thread, but allow it time to ebb and flow and try and keep it from exploding. (It'd also mean a lot less people would be tempted to ever respond to HHBH when he's clearly just trying to get under peoples skin)

I think really, there is no big problem where musicbanter is *actually* not welcoming newbies - with few exceptions new members are treated fairly, and don't leave because of some personal offense, but rather because a small slight to them might have them form a negative opinion, which is probably reaffirmed by seeing how some of the drama-ish threads end up playing out between those involved - then the new member decides MB as a community isn't for them.

Admittedly, there's no reason for everyone to be nicey nice - But at the same time, letting threads go nuclear and letting people wind each other up as a routine thing, isn't making anyone look good, no matter how nice or not-nice they are to each other, or to new members, outside of that thread.

Hell ****ing no, if our problem is that the forum is cliquey, (and it is), then this will only result in the cliques forming voting blocs and throwing everything all to hell. We aren't a large enough group to use that method - it would simply be too easy to abuse the system.

I agree with tore being level headed enough to fill the role you describe, but at the same time I think tore is in some ways too idealistic to keep the spirit of the forum as it is, and besides which, that sort of wholsesale change in structure would have to go through more than just the mod team - Yac would need to be involved and I just don't see him being willing to change the way the forum works on that scale.

I am still here because I continue to have quality discussions about music with a wide array of members. The benefit of having a music forum with subsections dedicated to creative writing and current affairs, etc., are what attracted me here in the first place - we're more than just a music forum.

This place is like high school in that personalities clash, but moreso like high school because people can't look past personalities clashing. Maybe I'm one of the people refusing to see my position in the drama, but I I don't expect us to all get along and I don't expect people to bite their tongues for that cause. I do expect to continue to contribute (mostly to a journal no one reads) and to have good discussions that lead me to finding great bands, so I'm continuing to get what I want from the place.

The only problem is when we do that we get even more drama about posts being deleted. Even when we say in the thread it's gone off topic.

I feel like the drama is the same as always, it's just handled differently than it was before. Since ive joined, people have always quit or gotten dramatic and either it was ignored or taken care of. It s dems like people are placing a bigger importance on being off topic or argumentative when in the past, we had people who stayed for so long causing drama without anyone really caring.

What the problem is to me is that the placement on drama is taking away from music talk. How many good music threads have I started that are simply getting ignored, people would rather talk about dreams and women. Which is fine. I just think the balance is off now more than it was before.

I actually can't remember the last time I discovered something new from this place. Rate Your Music, Last.fm and more recently Plug.dj satisfy my music needs. I originally joined this place to discover new music and talk about music that I couldn't talk to my friends about but this place hasn't satisfy that need in a while.

Tore was a great mod and did so much for this place but he's not interested in being a mod here anymore as far as I know. Voting mods in and out won't work either because then the mod team would consist of the most popular members rather than those fit for the role.

Exactly. We simply don't have a large enough number of people to form a working democracy. Small voting blocs would have too much ability to skew the results.

A relative meritocracy, similar to what we have now, is the best way, and I don't think there's any reason to change the current system - the team is already reasonable enough to weed out the bad mods.

The current system is the best system. I mod on another forum and if one mod leaves we just compile a list of potential candidates, investigate their posting history and general attitude and then select who we deem fit. It rarely fails.

The general problem with this place isn't even to do with the mod team. Anybody can help to make this place more worthwhile with thoughtful and constructive posts and threads.

Hello nublet here. (As an aside I dont have an inclination to leave this place. yet..)

I think the main issue here is what was said earlier in that the actual music portion of the forum is being overshadowed by the lounge. Ive already found a lot of really cool and interesting music from members here but its mostly happened on plug.dj. If it wasnt for that I'd have a hard time figuring out what kind of music almost any of the members here even like (albeit ive only been here for like a month or two). It seems like the bulk of the music forums are just about singular artist which really dont create much discussion other than "I like them" or "I dont like them". I guess I could start making threads that I find to be interesting but it doesnt seem worth it if people arent interested too. I tend to not make threads when Im relatively new to a forum just so i can gauge other members and their interests but this one has been pretty hard to do in terms of their music tastes, on the forums that is.

In terms of the clique-ness I think that happens in most forums. Especially since theres a lot of members here that have been around for years which tends to make feelings on other long term members stronger (whether in liking or disliking). Personally I havent felt that I must belong a this clique or that one around here but again im like 40 posts in so what do i even know.

Generally everyone that ive interacted with has been cool and I can tell I can learn a lot from a variety of members, while contributing some of my own tastes too. MB could be a lot worse, and I think it just takes a few interesting music threads and discussions to make it a lot better.

I have to agree with Arya on this one... there are FAR too many threads about non-music BS going on here. I don't get it. Isn't there anywhere else you people can go to talk about which men/women you'd bang, whether or not rape is the victim's fault, or your bad day?? Maybe I'm being a bit hypocritical -- I also post in these threads from time to time... but those topics are NOT what makes a music forum, and frankly, that's not what I'm here for. I'm pretty sure the internet is big enough for everyone to find an outlet. I would LOVE if people actually replied to threads that were about music. More.

Why not just get rid of the damn lounge altogether? Sorry for being so bold, but I don't really see its value.

I agree with Duga's original post that a lot of what goes on in the lounge is very much the rotten apple of the forum and too many people spend too much time on there fuelling up the dramas on there and it's usually the same culprits. There's nothing wrong with a debate and a bit of fisticuffs as we don't necessarily want a forum with angels either, but when it becomes constant trolling and verbal abuse I think that should be knocked on the head straight away. Personally I think the mods should take a firmer hand with certain people on here that are unable to interact in a decent manner, For example that Serbian nut that was one here and got banned, after spending about a week abusing people that didn't agree with him, he really should have been warned after the first abuse and banned on the second, I don't know why it went on for so long. If this type of no-nonsense message was made clear then the drama whores would leave and there would be a greater focus on music debate.

Normally I'm not one for a strict control on most things but when it comes to an internet forum, I think those in authority have a responsibility to go tough on offenders from the word go.

I think your memory may be playing tricks on you.
He joined on August 1st, received his first warning from Duga on that day.
Then I gave him a ban in the early hours of August 3rd.

So in reality he was barely here a day and a half and we did exactly what you just suggested to the letter.

Ok squire, my mistake:thumb:

Again, I really, REALLY don't think moderation is the problem here. At some point members, and that includes me, you, and everyone else, have to stand up and say "If the mod team need to be stricter with us, then we are not being strict enough on ourselves".

Crowing for greater "control" or whatever, is just going to destroy the easygoing atmosphere we currently have, and won't make anyone any more "welcomed".

The only thing is we ve had the lounge with no problem. Why remove something that people like? I don't see anything wrong with the lounge, I just think people either take stuff too personally or not personally enough when its actually offensive. Idk how long youve been around, I took a hiatus for a while, but we used to have trolls and dramatic people and they were taken with a grain of salt unless they a tually did something ****ed up... Now its like a free for all with some members and a probation for others. I honestly don't recall it being this way.