Changes to Rule Enforcement

Oriphiel · 05-28-2015, 07:43 AM

It seems that we both just have different ideas of what a healthy forum should be. I personally think that we control ourselves well enough that we don't need these new enforcement measures. I can understand your point of view, thinking that a code of law set in stone would benefit everyone, even if I think that such a code is much more soulless than the fluid set that has gotten Music Banter this far. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and let others decide for themselves how they feel about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Of course a thief may not want rules about stealing to be enforced. If you have a lawless sitaution, over time you may accumulate a lot of thieves and when the day comes for enforcing old rules, many will complain.

Cracking down on all of Music Banter for the petty things that occasionally go down in The Lounge is less like raiding a thieves den, and more like putting an entire city under martial law just because one neighborhood has a mild crime problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I still think drama and bad culture is highly visible. Threads with drama spend more time near the top of new threads. They spend more time being the thread with the latest post and I do think it spills over in other threads. Either directly or indirectly in that the tone in a drama thread sets precedent for tone in other threads. If you disagree, that's fine.

I don't have to disagree; Music Banter does it for me. Just look at all of the current threads. Even though we just went through one of the most tense moments in recent history, with Urban leaving after I pushed him too far, things are already back to normal. The members here would have had every right to bash me in every thread, yet almost all of the fighting was confined to just one. And even then, most members either ignored the thread completely, or went in purely to calm things down.

It didn't spill out. And though it made people tense, it ultimately didn't affect anything. Last night's fight in the "Your Day" thread got pretty nasty as well, but pretty much everyone has already moved past it, and it also didn't affect the Music Forums. The members here are much more mature and responsible than your "den of thieves" analogy makes them out to be. They self-moderate, and they do a pretty good job of it. They have proven that there is no need to put restrictions on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Also, part of your argument can be turned on its head. If it's only a few members who are unruly, then it's only a few that would really be affected by my suggestion. That means it's easier to implement.

Look, I get your point, I really do. If people have nothing to hide, than why should they be worried about more strict moderation, right? I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with that. It's the same argument that a pushy cop makes. "Who cares if I pat people down every chance I get? If they've got nothing to hide than it shouldn't matter." "Why won't you let me into your car/house without a warrant? You've got nothing to hide, right?" In theory, you might think they're correct to say that, since an innocent person shouldn't have a reason to not jump through their hoops. But they're also stressing people out, restricting them from going about their day, and so on. The only way to justify the pushy behavior is if it actually does help things, but in the case of MB, we already self moderate to the point where constant pat downs would just be a fruitless annoyance. We've proven that even when really bad things happen, we don't let it go too far.

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoxyRollah

/end thread.

The thread is not really about whether or not my suggestion would decrease rule breaking in the long term. It would. But the thread is really a suggestion that this is implemented.

When the suggestion is understood by the people it should reach and their concerns have been raised and discussed, then /end thread.

RoxyRollah · 05-28-2015, 07:46 AM

I was only teasing.I don't dissagree with you completely.

Oriphiel · 05-28-2015, 07:48 AM

Well, I suppose I've said everything I have to say. You know how I feel about the proposal, and where I stand. I'll give everyone else a chance to discuss this for awhile.

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Also, I'm capable of admitting that I probably(definitely) ruined threads/discussions for some people. I've also found myself annoyed when my topics get derailed by jokes/trolling, but that has never been enough to make me want to change the overall experience of the forum.

I'm a biologist and we talk a lot about how nature selects for various traits, like white fur in the snow or perhaps long necks or what have you.

Musicbanter is also an environment and it too selects for various traits in its members. The current MB environment selects for users who at the very least can cope with the status quo and possibly contribute to it and thrive in it. That our more recent members are happy with the freedom here - bickering and backstabbing and all - is to be expected.

If the site remains as it is, that's the sort of users it will continue to accumulate. Meanwhile, it will also continue to alienate others who don't like this environment.

I think what I'm suggesting is not harsh enough to alienate those who like the current situation (at least not most) while "strict" enough to make the site appeal to many of those who today would feel alienated by it.

RoxyRollah · 05-28-2015, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I'm a biologist and we talk a lot about how nature selects for various traits, like white fur in the snow or perhaps long necks or what have you.

Musicbanter is also an environment and it too selects for various traits in its members. The current MB environment selects for users who at the very least can cope with the status quo and possibly contribute to it. That our more recent members are happy with the freedom here - bickering and backstabbing and all - is to be expected.

If the site remains as it is, that's the sort of users it will continue to accumulate. Meanwhile, it will also continue to alienate others who don't like this environment.

I think what I'm suggesting is not harsh enough to alienate those who like the current situation while "strict" enough to make the site appeal to those who today would feel alienated by it.

Oriphiel · 05-28-2015, 07:59 AM

I guess i'm not done here quite yet, though I'll try to stay out of the main debate to keep it from going in circles...

Tore, I have a request for you: Please send me a PM, listing these supposed trolls that natural selection has caused to overrun Music Banter. If you can name more than three blatant flamers that have yet to be banned or driven away, I will rethink this whole matter. Because from what I've seen, the most popular and noticed people on Music Banter are the supportive ones. They're the ones that everyone pays attention to and loves, and there are as many of them as there have ever been.

Guybrush · 05-28-2015, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

It seems that we both just have different ideas of what a healthy forum should be. I personally think that we control ourselves well enough that we don't need these new enforcement measures. I can understand your point of view, thinking that a code of law set in stone would benefit everyone, even if I think that such a code is much more soulless than the fluid set that has gotten Music Banter this far. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and let others decide for themselves how they feel about it.

I'll be honest and admit that Urban's leaving is one of the reasons why I've brought this up - again. I think it's always relevant, but it was yet another reminder as to why. Those who have been here a while have seen many great members disappear. It is my belief that many of those great members probably left because they didn't like the environment here, the late Urban included.

Sooner or later, people get fed up with it. Those who don't are the ones who thrive on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

Cracking down on all of Music Banter for the petty things that occasionally go down in The Lounge is less like raiding a thieves den, and more like putting an entire city under martial law just because one neighborhood has a mild crime problem.

No it's not. Rule enforcement happens in a non-disruptive manner - in infractions and PMs stating why. If someone is punished for something they did in a discussion you're in, it's not a given you'd ever notice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

I don't have to disagree; Music Banter does it for me. Just look at all of the current threads. Even though we just went through one of the most tense moments in recent history, with Urban leaving after I pushed him too far, things are already back to normal. The members here would have had every right to bash me in every thread, yet almost all of the fighting was confined to just one. And even then, most members either ignored the thread completely, or went in purely to calm things down.

So nice that Urban not being here is something you consider "normal". Sorry for the cheap shot, but Musicbanter is like a tower of bricks and every time someone like Urban leaves, that's like removing a big one from the foundations. If something erodes piece by piece, it might not look different one day to the next. But if you go away for a year or two and come back, the difference may be apparent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

We've proven that even when really bad things happen, we don't let it go too far.

In my opinion, if a fight between two members has broken out on the boards and they're breaking rules, things have already gone too far. The rules are supposed to prevent this and what use are they if they can't?

What is too far in your opinion? I guess Urban leaving is not too far?

A sad thing about the current environment is that it pulls you down with it, even when you loathe it. I've gotten into fight (or fights?) with Sansa .. I think you end up being part of the problem even when you don't want to.

DwnWthVwls · 05-28-2015, 08:08 AM

The mods are willing to protect members from being trolled, it's just that no one takes advantage of it. For instance, in the new League of Legends thread that Yorke made the mods told him to report any off topic posts, and they will remove them.

We have the power to remove troll posts but no one reports anything. The mods are willing to enforce rules, but they generally don't do it on their own unless the situation gets to a point where they consider it to be out of control.

Edit: Big3 and GB have also said they don't really enjoy this place anymore because of the discussion.

Edit2: I think you should try and change their mind on what = out of control, instead of implementing an entirely new infraction policy.

RoxyRollah · 05-28-2015, 08:11 AM

Dude Urban leaving big deal,Mojo big deal Ped big deal.To me anyways.

05-28-2015, 07:48 AM	#44 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,355	Well, I suppose I've said everything I have to say. You know how I feel about the proposal, and where I stand. I'll give everyone else a chance to discuss this for awhile.

05-28-2015, 07:59 AM	#47 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,355	I guess i'm not done here quite yet, though I'll try to stay out of the main debate to keep it from going in circles... Tore, I have a request for you: Please send me a PM, listing these supposed trolls that natural selection has caused to overrun Music Banter. If you can name more than three blatant flamers that have yet to be banned or driven away, I will rethink this whole matter. Because from what I've seen, the most popular and noticed people on Music Banter are the supportive ones. They're the ones that everyone pays attention to and loves, and there are as many of them as there have ever been.