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Old 09-29-2011, 05:57 AM   #291 (permalink)
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Dylan as a political commentator is not extinct. This is possibly his most astute political song
In this song he dares to be unfashionable & comments on the demonization of Israel by self righteous bigots

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Old 09-29-2011, 10:02 AM   #292 (permalink)
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But Dylan did put it on the map, he popularized it more than any other folk artist before him and he is responsible for the development of folk rock.
He popularized American folk music, and he helped create folk rock.

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I did not say that Dylan pioneered lyrics
No, I think he helped bring abstractions to lyricism in modern music. I see that as a somewhat sizable contribution... especially since it became popular shortly after his inclusion of them.

However, if we're going to talk about pioneers in lyricism, I feel that The Velvet Underground (whose frontman was actually heavily influenced by Dylan) were much more important. They brought both intelligence and "forbidden" subject matters to rock, and this was around the same time that Dylan started to (1965).


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I said he pioneered depth in song lyrics by adding the intellectualism of classic literature and poetry.
Can you please share with us some examples of this?

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Its pretty obvious that Dylan was on another level of writing than Woody Guthrie was. It is evident when you compare their lyrics. Dylan was much more poetic.
I agree, but being a decent lyricist doesn't make you a decent musician.

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There wasnt any rock n roll that sounded anything like the rock n roll that Dylan was making.
You know what... I think you might be right. While his "regressive preservation" of folk music is down-heartening, he certainly helped change rock's sound (for better or for worse).

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He unquestionably added lyrical depth and intelligence to the music. If he didnt, tell me who did.
I think Leonard Cohen did a much better job, but Dylan was certainly one of the first.

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I suppose none of these people know anything about music or have the ability to recognize good music.
There's no such thing as "good" music. Since music is an art form, one's interpretation of it is entirely subjective. Also, being condescending on this website won't get you very far, my friend.
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:10 AM   #293 (permalink)
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He popularized American folk music, and he helped create folk rock.
he actually started out ripping off British folk before American folk as "his own songs". the debut was all covers

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I agree, but being a decent lyricist doesn't make you a decent musician.
i think he was a great finger-picker and a decent blues guitarist (you can only hear one instance of this on Leopard Skin Pill-Box Hat cos that was the only blues song he soloed upon)

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There's no such thing as "good" music. Since music is an art form, one's interpretation of it is entirely subjective. Also, being condescending on this website won't get you very far, my friend.
ah, but oh so subjective
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Old 09-29-2011, 01:22 PM   #294 (permalink)
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He popularized American folk music, and he helped create folk rock.



No, I think he helped bring abstractions to lyricism in modern music. I see that as a somewhat sizable contribution... especially since it became popular shortly after his inclusion of them.

However, if we're going to talk about pioneers in lyricism, I feel that The Velvet Underground (whose frontman was actually heavily influenced by Dylan) were much more important. They brought both intelligence and "forbidden" subject matters to rock, and this was around the same time that Dylan started to (1965).




Can you please share with us some examples of this?



I agree, but being a decent lyricist doesn't make you a decent musician.



You know what... I think you might be right. While his "regressive preservation" of folk music is down-heartening, he certainly helped change rock's sound (for better or for worse).



I think Leonard Cohen did a much better job, but Dylan was certainly one of the first.



There's no such thing as "good" music. Since music is an art form, one's interpretation of it is entirely subjective. Also, being condescending on this website won't get you very far, my friend.
Yes he did help create folk rock, more than anyone else. The Byrds are seen as the pioneers of Folk Rock and they owe a lot of their fame to Dylan. I cant think of anyone who covered more Dylan songs than the Byrds. The term "folk rock" was itself first coined by the U.S. music press to describe The Byrds' music in June 1965, the same month that the band's debut album was issued. The release of The Byrds' cover version of Dylan's "Mr. Tambourine Man" and its subsequent commercial success initiated the folk rock explosion of the mid-1960s

The Velvet underground was great. Its pretty apparent that Lou Reed was influenced by Dylan. You can hear it in his vocal style. However, I dont think he was better than Dylan. I dont think they more important either. As you said, Reed was heavily influenced by Dylan.

I dont need to provide examples. Just listen to the music, read the lyrics. Its a fact that Dylan was very influenced by classic poets. He has been nominated for the Nobel Prize in literature every year since 1996. The only thing keeping him from winning is the fact some people dont think song lyrics are poetry. But there is no question that the two are linked.

"I don't think there's anybody that uses words better than he does," said Christopher Ricks, Professor of poetry at Oxford University and the author of highly regarded works of literary criticism such as "The Force of Poetry" and "Allusion to the Poets," as well as books on T.S. Eliot, Lord Alfred Tennyson and John Keats.

"But I think his is an art of a mixed medium," Ricks said. "I think the question would not be whether he deserves (the Nobel Prize) as an honor to his art. The question would be whether his art can be described as literature."

"Dylan is a major American bard and minstrel of the 20th century" who deserves the award for his "mighty and universal powers," Allen Ginsberg wrote in his Nobel Prize nomination letter.

Dylan was more than a decent lyricist. If he was decent, then give me an example of a better one, besides Lou Reed and Leonard Cohen. Leonard Cohen is the one guy that I will say was better than Dylan, and im not even sure that he was better. I prefer Dylan. Lou Reed is close, but I wont say hes better.

He was also more than a decent musician. His songs focus on his lyrics, not his musicianship. He was a good finger picker and he could hold his own on the organ, piano and harmonica. Ive seen him live and I couldnt believe how good he was at the organ and harmonica, simply because his records dont display his skill as an instrumentalist. He was doing some soloing on
his harmonica when I saw him and it was great. I was very surprised by how good he was.

the first 30 seconds of soloing in this song is Dyan. Its not amazing, but its not bad by any means. He never was a lead guitarist. Actually, its pretty difficult to sing while doing some of his fingerpicking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dDHkRrJ9QE

Also, just about all of the lead guitar playing on his unplugged album was done by him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJpB_AEZf6U

If youre not a Dyaln hater and you know of some good examples of his skill as an instrumentalist, please post them.

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Old 09-29-2011, 05:08 PM   #295 (permalink)
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Its pretty apparent that Lou Reed was influenced by Dylan. You can hear it in his vocal style.
I mainly hear it in Reed's way of emphasizing certain words. He still had a very unique voice for his time (despite Dylan's influence), and many alternative rock musicians would later mimic it in the 80s and early 90s.

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However, I dont think he was better than Dylan.
Neither do I. As far as solo careers go, Dylan has a much more successful one, while Reed only has a handful of decent albums (with the majority of the others being either average or absolute crap).

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I dont think they more important either. As you said, Reed was heavily influenced by Dylan.
Oh, I definitely think The Velvet Underground were more important, more innovative, and more creative than Dylan, but that's another discussion for another time. We could debate it all day if we wanted to, but... it wouldn't really go anywhere.

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I dont need to provide examples. Just listen to the music, read the lyrics. Its a fact that Dylan was very influenced by classic poets.
I'm just curious in whether or not he uses any allusions in referencing certain classical poets' work or which poets specifically influenced him. I'm not dismissing Dylan's versatility in lyricism in any shape or form.

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Dylan was more than a decent lyricist. If he was decent, then give me an example of a better one, besides Lou Reed and Leonard Cohen.
Aesop Rock and (maybe) Townes Van Zandt

Last edited by Cenotaph; 09-29-2011 at 07:14 PM. Reason: it wuz a gramor errer
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Old 09-29-2011, 07:55 PM   #296 (permalink)
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I mainly hear it in Reed's way of emphasizing certain words. He still had a very unique voice for his time (despite Dylan's influence), and many alternative rock musicians would later mimic it in the 80s and early 90s.



Neither do I. As far as solo careers go, Dylan has a much more successful one, while Reed only has a handful of decent albums (with the majority of the others being either average or absolute crap).



Oh, I definitely think The Velvet Underground were more important, more innovative, and more creative than Dylan, but that's another discussion for another time. We could debate it all day if we wanted to, but... it wouldn't really go anywhere.



I'm just curious in whether or not he uses any allusions in referencing certain classical poet's work or which poets specifically influenced him. I'm not dismissing Dylan's versatility in lyricism in any shape or form.



Aesop Rock and (maybe) Townes Van Zandt
Dylan was influenced by Dylan Thomas(where he got the name "Dylan" from). T.S. Elliot, John Keats and William Blake just to name a few.

I will agree that the velvet underground were more experimental and innovative, but i dont think they were more important. Nobody can match Dylans level of influence except maybe the Beatles with the Velvet Underground shortly behind. I feel that its pretty safe to say that Dylan is the most influential artist of all time. The velvet underground werent even very popular in their day, it wasnt till later on down the road that they really got noticed. But that being said, The Velvet Underground were wayyyy ahead of their time and very very influential. Im a big fan. Townes Van Zandt was good but he was no Dylan in my opinion. What about Van Morrison? I think he was a great lyricist. Were pretty much seeing eye to eye here. We agree on most things being said.
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:19 PM   #297 (permalink)
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What about Van Morrison? I think he was a great lyricist. Were pretty much seeing eye to eye here. We agree on most things being said.
I haven't listened to enough of his music to give a valid opinion.
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Old 10-01-2011, 09:43 AM   #298 (permalink)
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i'm listening to disc 2 of No Direction Home

really great stuff - hearing different slants on overplayed albums' tracks
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Old 10-01-2011, 10:42 AM   #299 (permalink)
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"The last time I met Bob was after a concert he'd done in Paris. We met in a cafe and we had a real good writers talk. You couldnt meet two people who work more differently. He said, "I like the song you wrote called Hallelujah. How long did it take you?" And I said, "Oh the best part of two years." He said, "two years?" Kinda shocked. And then we started talking about a song of his called I and I from infidels. I said, "How long did you take to write that?" He said, "Ohhh, 15 minutes." I almost fell off my chair. Bob just laughed." - Leonard Cohen
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Old 10-01-2011, 10:43 AM   #300 (permalink)
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I haven't listened to enough of his music to give a valid opinion.
^ Then I`d recommend Astral Weeks which has some truely exceptional lyrics, and an unusual line-up of instruments which creates a soft, complex wash of sound behind some of VM`s most anguished singing.
Cypress Avenue and Madame George are just amazing tracks: though it sounds a bit harsh to say it, Van Morrison spent the rest of his career failing to live up to the promise he showed on this album.
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