Rishi Sunak says 'a man is a man and a woman is a woman'

**Marie Monday** · 12-16-2023, 03:35 PM

ok dude

The Batlord · 12-16-2023, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis

The goals of the trans activism I'm talking about are changes to law. Law is by necessity a broad-brush affair. I don't have to think that all or most or even many MTFs are predators (though among those who demand transfer to women's prisons in Canada it doesn't look good) to think that none of them belong in spaces where women have an expectation of freedom from the male gaze and penis.

It might get interesting if you name some of those kinds of trans activism you're prepared to condemn as dangerous or excessive. It sounds like you're comfortable with saying this about the consequences but not about the well-funded and sophisticated political campaigns of policy capture that lead to those consequences.

It's easy to agree that this is not ideal:

But pointing out what has made this possible is much more challenging because it requires offending many perfectly nice people. Believe me, I get it. I haven't survived in academia for as long as I have (though whether being an adjunct amounts to survival I'm not at all sure) because I'm as outspoken elsewhere as I am on a zero stakes anonymous forum.

"If you're a transfem who doesn't want to go to a men's prison then you're a rapist."

Hey here's a law: Jadis must heretofore forthwith suck my cock.

elphenor · 12-19-2023, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis

I'm more interested in what sense this person can be said to be a woman.

you can't lie about your gender because it's a self-identifier anyway

you just are what you say you are when it comes to gender

typically people present as their gender but even that isn't what makes a man or woman

elphenor · 12-19-2023, 11:55 AM

sex may need to be considered in the case of trans women in sports, it's definitely complicated

however it's so clear that you're using the issue as a vehicle for your transphobia that I don't know why you'd even bother being disingenuous

**Marie Monday** · 12-19-2023, 12:25 PM

Yoooo elph!

elphenor · 12-19-2023, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadis

Once you stretch the concept of "woman" to where everyone can just opt into it there's no legal basis to contest the outcomes

it's not that the definition of a woman has stretched in this particular way

"Woman" has always been a social designation

we do not go around asking to see people's birth certificates in order to determine their gender, we take a look at their presentation

the way we present gender has changed naturally through history to the point where we can reasonably ask if it's necessary to present at all

SGR · 12-19-2023, 06:10 PM

Elph, I thought you were dead. Did Satan send you back up to us as punishment?

The Batlord · 12-19-2023, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindfulness

elph, where did your 14,000+ posts go?

He doesn't want his next girlfriend knowing what he said about the mail.

WWWP · 12-21-2023, 08:08 AM

Omg now I understand why my packages are all delayed

jadis · 12-26-2023, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

you can't lie about your gender because it's a self-identifier anyway

you just are what you say you are when it comes to gender

typically people present as their gender but even that isn't what makes a man or woman

I agree completely. I just think that it is this hollow usage that makes it, today, a pretty useless concept. "Whatever you say bro" cannot be at the basis of any meaningful social category.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

sex may need to be considered in the case of trans women in sports, it's definitely complicated

however it's so clear that you're using the issue as a vehicle for your transphobia that I don't know why you'd even bother being disingenuous

I opened this thread as an attempt to dodge the transphobia allegations but seems like somebody's finally seen through my elaborate charade.

Don't remember if I stated this on this forum or on the other but I feel very differently about those who transition to opt out of their gender* (typically women) compared to those who seek entry into another (typically men, MTFs). For the former I feel lots of compassion, for the latter not so much. The one is about escaping restrictive categories, the other about reifying them, not to mention enforcing a punitive bureacracy around the whole thing.

*Meaning here the set of societal conventions and expectations that you don't choose, so the opposite of an "inner identity"

12-19-2023, 06:10 PM	#127 (permalink)
SGR No Ice In My Bourbon Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: /dev/null Posts: 4,327	Elph, I thought you were dead. Did Satan send you back up to us as punishment?