What's your connection with Israel btw? Aside from disliking its government (you haven't actually said what you dislike about it), what are your thoughts about it? Would you ever move there, serve in the military etc? Share...:)

I have no foreskin. I don't like the government because it tends to be fairly conservative and heavy-handed. It's pretty dangerous there, but it's also a great vacation place, so I'm not sure if I would move. My hebrew school teacher served in the army, she says it's great. It's nothing like the US Army, thank god.

I realize that, I just don't understand what the attraction is to move there. Especially if you're already living in a wealthy country. I'm not sure what could be great about serving...it's mandatory and it lasts for 2-3 years. And you know that place is a constant war zone.

I saw a great Israeli film about the military recently called Beufort, you should see it, it was nominated for an Oscar...

There's a very low casualty rate (Lower than the American army, or close to), and it provides real benefits and connections. You get to stay close to family and friends, lots of leave time etc. I wouldn't personally move there, but a lot of people don't live in a wealthy nation, like you said. I guess a lot of people just want to be around other Jews.

I'll check it out.

Except for letting them live in their homes. sic: not homeLAND but actual HOMES. Those places you worked to buy and grew up in, as opposed to those places your great great great great great great Grandfather possibly lived in.

You do know how the British Empire was bullied into forming the Israeli state right?

Enlighten us please...

Zionist political violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Not a fan of wiki links as "proof" but it pretty well sums up the back of what Israel was created upon and has all relevant references at the bottom.

Uh, those homes have been destroyed by what? Oh yah, Arab attacks and terrorist operations.


I'd hardly call that bullying. Sounds like it wasn't very effective.

Eurgh, actually soddit. I've been through too many online debates with pre-pubescent Americans who buy into the bull**** Murdoch media campaigns and are left thinking the sun shines out of Israels arse.

Come back when you've done some real research into the subject; primarily by looking at a wider selection or sources that have a bias other than Murdoch's zionist brainwashing. Fuck it, start with a google search and you'll learn a hell of a lot.

If you're so far gone that you genuinely think the primary sources of destruction in the area come from Arab nations and terrorist organisations, nothing I say or link to as evidence will likely alter your bigoted opinion. Protip: the primary cause of damage is Israel.

I have a mission for your self-enlightenment.
1. Consider how much people moan and gripe about immigrants stealing jobs. Then consider what would happen if EVERYONE IN AMERICA was told they have to up sticks and move to either New Mexico or Iowa, because the Bosnians have had a real shit time of it what with racial prosecution, and need somewhere safe to life.
2. Google search on "Israeli Gaza Incursion" and at least look at a few of the time stamps on the articles, even if you don't bother reading them.
3. Google image search on "Israeli security fence". Keep the results in consideration when comparing these images:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo..._hist_1973.jpg

Notably bottom left (land which Israel was legally allowed) and bottom right (land which Israel itself and zionist militia's wrested from the Palestinian occupants).

Really? Millions of Jews were displaced in the Holocaust and they can't have a place to live because the Palestinians couldn't move to a less populated area? There would be no refugee problem if the Arab nations agreed to solve the dispute peacefully and accepted the splitting of Palestine.
Edit: Palestinians occupy a significant portion of the 'occupied territories'. You know why Israel has a security fence? Here's a story for you:
A pregnant women was rushed through it into a hospital in Israel, only to set off her 'baby'. 55 Jews were killed.

Kick the cat. Palestinians didn't gas the Jews why should they suffer the consequences? The terrorist organisations represent a select few; why are all Palestinians collectively responsible and punishable for the actions of so little? Why should surrounding countries have to take millions into their infrastructure as a result of poor British handling of the situation? Countries such as Jordan and Syria (which were created to in such a fashion to ease foreign Governance, Israel was an irrelevance at the time of their formation) DID take on refugees (have you bothered to look up the stats on this?) but amazingly nations just coming out of the rule of a foreign empire and trying to set themselves up tend to find it hard to handle an influx of five million. Hell even America with all the space it has wouldn't really know what to do with 5 million asylum seekers. Why is it the responsibility of the surrounding nations to pick up the fallout caused by Israeli methods?

Did you bother looking into WHY the woman felt the necessity to blow herself and a load of other people up? Have you bothered to compare the number of Palestinian lives lost (both to Israeli incursions AND their "own" suicide bombers) compared to those of Israelis lost to suicide bombers and terrorist militias? Have you looked into the number of suicide bombings triggered by events caused by the Security Fence? Have you looked into the effect that the illegal settlements and their supply roads have on the Palestinian quality of life?

There would be no problem if the Zionists had accepted the offer of an unpopulated area of Uganda. I say again, how would America respond if it's entire population was told they had two, undeveloped (comparatively), economically disadvantages states that they all had to move to and live in because Bosnians and Chechens need somewhere safe to live away from the oppressive Russian Government.

Protip: Not just Jews suffered in the holocaust. Shall we give the homosexuals Greece, because it's their historical homeland? Furthermore the holocaust isn't the only Genocide; giving a country to each group that has suffered is unrealistic and inane.

Tl;dr: as I've said, I'm bored of debating with Jews who think Israel shits whippy ice cream.
Because it's obvious you didn't bother to do a single of the google searches (whippy ice cream tastes a whole lot nicer before people tell you it's made with the same chemicals they put in nappies), this is my last post directed as a response to you in this thread. I'll leave you with the easier task of googling the phrase "Sabra and Shatila". If you think you have a good stomach you can even try an image search.

i'll agree with fal on this on certain points: israel is by no means a victim, they contributed to the violence that has been going on for years as much as the palstinians have, and that the main cause of the whole mess was that the british mishandled the situation. however, fal is leaving quite a few points out.

When israel first started accepting refugees, they incorporated them into existing jewish communities that had already been bought. when they started looking for their own independant state, that's when violence erupted from both sides. the UN voted for partition, which left part of palestine to the jews, at this, arab nations invaded the country, intent on killing them off and getting them out of palestine. israel fought back, and as a result of the war, palestine was faced with an enormous refugee problem when jewish forces captured and occupied previously arab settlements. THIS is probably where the main point of the argument takes place. was it fair game for israel to keep the spoils of a war so to speak? or should they have allowed the palestinian refugees back in their homes when "peace" was established.

I care about Israel personally because of this.

Does anyone know if Israel actually has any local industry? Or do they just sit around rolling in the Benjamins and bombing Muslims?

Israel has a huge tourism industry, invented cell phones, acne cream and is basically one of the epicenters of technology.

Israel Should most definitely exist, but as to it's location, no matter how holy it is, it's not ideally positioned for peace.

Invented the Uzi too, and have made massive technological military advancements in their time. Still don't have a strong enough economy to support their First World way of life without the considerable U.S. subsidies they receive.

acne cream = epicentre of technology?

not only is that assertion laughable, i am pretty sure you are wrong about cell phones being invented by an israeli

By the by, we were english then, and you taxed the **** out of our tea. You homelanders never respected the colonies. We went for the gut.

Actually Eli Whitney had created a machine to boil the entire ocean (using only guns) for the tea we threw in. It was a peace offering from the Colonists to King George, not their fault you Brits were too thick to get it.

National Hug a Jew Day is coming up.

No one person totally invented the cell phone but as far as I can tell the guy who is considered the father of the mobile phone is from Chicago.

It's a double-edged sword. I think the palestinians got the shaft and I can understand the animosity towards israel. At the same time I can understand that israel needs to defend itself. Being a north american I could understand why the natives would be pissed off at me, but I'd have to defend myself out of the same practical necessity . The israelis today inherited the whole f'd up situation from their forefathers, which is a shame.

Jordan is a safe place to live, and a hell of a lot of Palestinians live there for that reason. As far as this ridicious debate goes - no. It's like saying should Germany exist because their late leader Hitler created a world war and encouraged the killing of over 6 million Jews.

I'm always amazed at the circular discussion Zionists use to convince themselves that the Palestine situation leaves Israel minimally culpable. "Jordan was created to take the Palestinians, it's not Israel's fault the people who live in Jordan didn't agree to this! Or have space! Or have infrastructure! I mean, sure we kicked the Palestinians out of their homes overnight but there are OTHER COUNTRIES for them to go to with more of their type that they can be friends with!"

Seriously. Pause for a second, reflect on this. Fancy for a second that somebody got a map of the US, put a big line on it one day and said "The Native Americans can have all the East Coast states. They're a prosecuted people who need the support they can get to live a fair life. Any displaced WASPs can go live in Oklahoma. Play nice kids!"

The British Empire had no more right (except through military conquest, snerk) to make such declarations in the first place regarding the Israel/Palestine situation. Israeli's illegally secured more land through terrorism and armed aggression against civilians. This continues to this day and efforts to counter illegal objects [such as the settlements that snake their way through Palestinian territory and the "security fence" (concrete wall) which also eats it's way into UN determined Palestinian territory] are minimal at best.

If you want to even try and claim that Jordan and Palestine aren't sticking to the rules, and Jordan should act as a refugee camp for 15million Palestinians (America wouldn't take that many refugees just overnight - where would the infrastructure come from let alone any other issues? And Jordan is a TINY country with none of the capital to cope) you really have to accept that Israel as an entity has never even bothered playing ball.

Regardless of how Isreal was formed, now that is does exist, it should be respected, and the Jewish religion should be respected. The elephant in the room no one wants to talk about are the mohammedians. They don't want anyone of another faith to live there. Isreal is a tiny dot on the map of what is controlled by a non-Judeo-Christian relegion. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad repeatedly calls for Isreal to wiped off the map. In a sense Isreal is a canary in the coal mine. If something serious happens to Isreal, it could very well happen to the United States or another country.

Yes because Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has BOTH the power to do said map wiping, and also the full support and respect of his nation.

Respect isn't dished out like some mandatory obligation. It's earned by merit of actions and attitudes. The Jewish religion (as vague and all encompassing such as that term is) should be respected. Israel, however, has done very little to show that it's a respectable institution.

I'm perfectly willing to agree that there are groups of Palestinians whose actions have been atrocious. It's also absolutely undeniable that neighbouring states resent Israel and have an aggressive foreign policy towards them (hardly surprising). However I don't really see that much can be put towards a discussion by someone so ridiculously ignorant as to refer to Muslims as "mohammedians" and to talk about them as if they're a collective hive mind with a single intent.

The Koran teaches that all Sons of David (Muslisms, Jews and Christians) will gain access to heaven. Hardly the message of haters. Considering the fact that Islam, Judaism and Christianity are collectively referred to as the Abrahamic Religions because they all have the same root source and also remembering gems such as the Crusades, the Holocaust (committed in the name of Christianity) and the fun little stories in the Old Testament about starting wars and raping your enemies women ... also remember that by the nature of mainstream media you only ever hear the noisy, angry minority rather than the reasonable, level-headed majority on ANYTHING let alone Islam. Leave your front door once in a while and you may learn something of the outside world.

Might does not make right. Even if Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had all the power in the world, it is a moral injustice, a crime againt morality to threaten Isreal - the people, the nation. Every country, every people have the right to live in peace, have its own culture and religion, this goes for Isreal - regardless how it was formed.

All I have to say to that is the skunk smells his hole first. The Dovells were dead wrong when they sang "The kids in Bristol are sharp as a pistol" whoof they really miss the target on that one.

wrong wrong wrong. that is extremely nonsensical relativistic new-ageism.
I don't like name calling but only a philosophical mooncalf would try to lump them together.

That sounds sardonic. Truth be told the most of the memebers Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei were Neo-Pagans, it had nothing to do with Christianity. Italy, mostly Christian at the time, save 90% of the Jewish people living there at the time, compared to the 90% that was lost throughout Europe.

No I think the media rather favours the muslims and only reports favourably in their favor, while totally ignoring the plight of the Christian in the Middle East.

in short:
If you respect the Jewish people and understood that they have a right to live in peace you would not be so disgruntled. Lighten up, live and let live.

Might does not make right. Even if Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had all the power in the world, it is a moral injustice, a crime againt morality to threaten Isreal - the people, the nation. Every country, every people have the right to live in peace, have its own culture and religion, this goes for Isreal - regardless how it was formed.

All I have to say to that is the skunk smells his hole first. The Dovells were dead wrong when they sang "The kids in Bristol are sharp as a pistol" whoof they really miss the target on that one.

wrong wrong wrong. that is extremely nonsensical relativistic new-ageism.
I don't like name calling but only a philosophical mooncalf would try to lump them together.

That sounds sardonic. Truth be told the most of the memebers Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei were Neo-Pagans, it had nothing to do with Christianity. Italy, mostly Christian at the time, save 90% of the Jewish people living there at the time, compared to the 90% that was lost throughout Europe.

No I think the media rather favours the muslims and only reports favourably in their favor, while totally ignoring the plight of the Christian in the Middle East.

in short:
If you respect the Jewish people and understood that they have a right to live in peace you would not be so disgruntled. Lighten up, live and let live.

I do respect the Jewish people. I do believe that everyone has a right to live in peace. It is for this reason I condemn the actions of Israel pretty much every time it does something new; not because it is Israel but because it always does bad things.

Now I understand that you're a cretin. It's ok you can't help that, it's just funny every time you talk. I'm not going to get into a debate with you because reading your responses and replying to them would hurt my intelligence more than it would help yours. I will say that if you have the mindfulness to want to learn on the subject there's a wealth of good resources on the internet if you're willing to overlook the ones funded by zionist interests. A good place to start would be a google search on "Sabra and Shatila" and work from there. If you don't want to put the groundwork in and learn for yourself I have no interest in attempting to lecture some common sense into you here.

Really? I mean, really? How old are you, 90? Shall I get your blanket and a night cap? You can try a lot better than that.

I'm sorry to hear that, you don't have to reply, I wouldn't want you to hurt your intelligence, take the day off, if after a day, it still hurts you intelligence, maybe you think about quit replying all together, before you do irreparable damage to your intelligence.

Come now, if you must have the last word you could at least try being witty. Nice overuse of commas though, makes it that little bit more painful to read.

Fal,,

I have some advice for you why not use a logical agruement to put forth your opinion instead of what you do like resorting to insulting people for no reason then to make yourself feel like a superior genious

you are a one trick pony who so happen to ran out of an idea so what do you do you have to have these little ad hominem arguemental attacks towards those who oppose your position so what do you do you gripe about peoples punctuation who cares about punctuation what do you have an allergy to commas or something or is it just an aversion to use or in your case peruse punctuation what are you an english professor or a editor in cheif of some blog site

and by the way where do you get off calling me a cretin I am no where near the Island of Crete let alone live there you are way off base with that one

nice retaliation, y'know with the complete lack of commas and all.


at least you're receptive, if not a grammarians worst nightmare.

of course it should exist.... you know how many countries think WE shouldn't exist.. Its part of our history, we cant erase that.

thoughts?

Cretan. You can complain to your English Language teacher about vocabulary as well as punctuation when you next meet to discuss the shortfalls of their education.

Drop the namecalling & pointless grammar arguments please

I think this is exibit A on how religion can really f*ck the world up.

I mean this is a land that according to 2 different books was given by god to a favored ethnic group, and eventually because of some Christian/racist bias, the Jews was given Israel. And even though it's a breeding ground for terrorism and violence, Jews keep migrating to this so called "land of peace"

I'm telling you, religion f*cking makes you crazy.

Israel is a fascist regime backed by the U.S.A.
They are U.S. puppets.
Palestianians are the victims.
They have no rights.
Even the Arabs who live in Israel are treated like second class citiziens.
The wall between Palestine, and Israel is like The Berlin Wall.
Built to keep out unwanted people.
Not just that but the Palestianians are starting to resort to Right-Wing terrorism, because of their treatment by Israel.
Being Anti-Zionist is different then being Anti-Semitic.
Israel calling Anti-Zionists Anti-Semitic is just so they can eliminate critiscm.
I am against fundementalism.
I am an atheist.

You can write more than several lines a post you know.