The Wow I Can't Believe That News Story Thread - Music Banter Music Banter

Go Back   Music Banter > Community Center > The Lounge > Current Events, Philosophy, & Religion
Register Blogging Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Welcome to Music Banter Forum! Make sure to register - it's free and very quick! You have to register before you can post and participate in our discussions with over 70,000 other registered members. After you create your free account, you will be able to customize many options, you will have the full access to over 1,100,000 posts.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-29-2019, 04:45 PM   #18521 (permalink)
jwb
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 4,403
Default

But the only examples of a complex society like our own working has always had the basic apparatus of the state as the Monopoly of force. This has always been true since the dawn of civilization. Because as soon as we developed the ability to create a surplus of goods, there were hordes of bandits looking to raid that surplus.

More primitive, stateless societies like tribes never exceed a certain size and they don't create the same kind of surplus or wealth.
jwb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 04:46 PM   #18522 (permalink)
SOPHIE FOREVER
 
Frownland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East of the Southern North American West
Posts: 35,541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisnaholic View Post
Are you asking me that question, Frownland? I'm puzzled because I'm suggesting they should be treated similarly to other regular professions.
Yes, and I was asking you that to see if there are any circumstances that would change that opinion.

Quote:
^ Bold bit #1: strictly speaking, the police shouldn't be blamed for unethical laws as they are not the ones writing the laws. They can be blamed though, for over-zealous application of unethical laws, and of that, I'm sure they are frequently guilty.
"We were just following orders."

Quote:
Bold bit #2: I suspect that official training is to enforce laws equally.
What makes you think that?

I also want to clarify that I'm only talking about American police.
__________________
Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Frownland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 05:00 PM   #18523 (permalink)
...here to hear...
 
Lisnaholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: He lives on Love Street
Posts: 4,444
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frownland View Post
Yes, and I was asking you that to see if there are any circumstances that would change that opinion.
^ I need to think about that


Quote:
"We were just following orders."
^ HaHa! This is a very good point too.

Quote:
What makes you think that?
^ Isn't there something about "equality under the law" in the constitution? And if a law says for instance, "Stop a guy who's driving too fast" that would be the official training. If a policeman gets the message, "Stop a guy who's driving too fast, especially if he's black" I wouldn't call that training myself, I'd put that down to a culture of racism at a local level.

Actually I have to go out now, but will come back to your other points if I can think up some decent answers.
__________________
"Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953
Lisnaholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 05:01 PM   #18524 (permalink)
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 51
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frownland View Post
Just trust me on this one.
Can't a girl hate cops in peace
Deaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 05:38 PM   #18525 (permalink)
SOPHIE FOREVER
 
Frownland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East of the Southern North American West
Posts: 35,541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisnaholic View Post
I'll have to think about that.
It's something I try to ask myself to avoid becoming too dogmatic about any one stance.

Quote:
^ Isn't there something about "equality under the law" in the constitution? And if a law says for instance, "Stop a guy who's driving too fast" that would be the official training. If a policeman gets the message, "Stop a guy who's driving too fast, especially if he's black" I wouldn't call that training myself, I'd put that down to a culture of racism at a local level.
Yes, that's covered under the 14th amendment. That said, most of the inequal laws are not explicitly unequally applied but are designed to have unequal outcomes. See: the drug war, softness towards Hell's Angels while being hard on Crips, border control, the list goes on. As far as training goes, the ways in which police are trained to identify criminal behaviour aligns with hierarchical norms that result in the targeting of minority communities.

Also, one thing that aligns a little more closely with the localized element that you mentioned is that we train our policemen to shoot to kill when they fear for their safety instead of deescalating the situation, and the application of that often aligns with aforementioned hierarchical norms. Then there's the undeniable disparity in accountability for police brutality based on who the victim is.

It's not as blatantly racist as the 3/5ths rule, but the inequality is certainly there. The subtlety is what's kept it in place for so long tbf. If you aren't super familiar with American police then it can seem silly but these mfs are sneaky.

Wait, don't you live in Mexico? How do you feel about the police there if you don't mind me asking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaa View Post
Can't a girl hate cops in peace
Please do.
__________________
Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Frownland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 06:06 PM   #18526 (permalink)
jwb
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 4,403
Default

I don't even disagree way the police interact with communities is problematic and that there are basic structural problems with the current state of things, but...

I don't understand what that has to do with splashing water on cops, hating cops specifically, or fantasizing about a world without them. How exactly does any of this help the problems you identified?
jwb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 06:28 PM   #18527 (permalink)
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 51
Default

My issue isn't fundamentally with specific examples of """problematic""" police treatment, that's just the nasty cherry on top.
Deaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 06:31 PM   #18528 (permalink)
SOPHIE FOREVER
 
Frownland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East of the Southern North American West
Posts: 35,541
Default

@jwbs

Much like Antifa streetfighters, I think the water dousing is detrimental to solving the problem. As far as hating cops, I don't think that solves the problem outside of stigmatizing the profession to keep people from prolonging it, but that doesn't mean that it isn't justified.

As far as solving problems goes, I think that near-Draconian punishment of the abuse of power is the first step. There's the prospect of refining the law to be more just but I think you're only asking for realistic solutions so I won't waste your time with that.
__________________
Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Frownland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 06:36 PM   #18529 (permalink)
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 51
Default

Deaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2019, 06:41 PM   #18530 (permalink)
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 51
Default

lets just give everyone a gun
Deaa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



© 2003-2024 Advameg, Inc.