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Old 09-21-2019, 12:39 AM   #19101 (permalink)
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Don't be such a sore loser.
Hoes be obsessed with winning and losing.
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Old 09-21-2019, 12:42 AM   #19102 (permalink)
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:56 AM   #19103 (permalink)
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and the US grew its economy on slave labor, exploitatation of immigrants, extreme central planning from the government, military dominance

you don't get a rich country because capitalism is The Best and all that standard nonesense
I agree. The US is the richest most powerful country due to conquest, slavery and being the benefactors of inheriting the global empire via ww2.

My point was on propaganda. Indoctrination. The fact that you can't admit the soviets didn't really provide a useful model for how to structure an economy is due to your indoctrination. You don't have to give up on communism to admit that. You just have to stop defending failed experiments while also paradoxically trying to disassociate those experiments with what true communism would look like.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:23 AM   #19104 (permalink)
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I agree. The US is the richest most powerful country due to conquest, slavery and being the benefactors of inheriting the global empire via ww2.

My point was on propaganda. Indoctrination. The fact that you can't admit the soviets didn't really provide a useful model for how to structure an economy is due to your indoctrination. You don't have to give up on communism to admit that. You just have to stop defending failed experiments while also paradoxically trying to disassociate those experiments with what true communism would look like.
Nobody can really agree upon what would actually "work" for a modern day Communist society because people don't want to forego the benefits of capitalism. We like our grocery stores and coffee machines and entertainment industry. All of that would go away if you shifted to a model where you can't clearly incentivize people.

That's not to say it couldn't ever work...but I think it's a logistical nightmare that makes the U.S. look like Candyland in comparison.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:26 AM   #19105 (permalink)
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On skimming the conversation that happened since I was absent I agree with the socialists that Ant does seem out of touch with regard to poverty in this country.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:30 AM   #19106 (permalink)
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On skimming the conversation that happened since I was absent I agree with the socialists that Ant does seem out of touch with regard to poverty in this country.
They want to make an argument that simply isn't true and blow up numbers that don't gel with actual hard stats from the BLS. 1.8 million people isn't nothing, but everything they're complaining about can be fixed by policy changes, not by pulling the rug out from everyone.

As far as personal experience goes....I was in poverty for the first 20 years or so of my life and I spent eight of those lying about my age to local grocers, restaurants, etc. and working my ass off. Did a year in a warehouse, another in a slaughterhouse. I know what it's like to have nothing and it sucks and drains the life out of you. But I'm not going to change my conclusions about this stuff (in regards to a macro-oriented discussion) just because they want to turn this into an emotional spitfest. Having a "woe is me" attitude in the face of the majority never did me a lick of good. If I had taken a leaf out of Bats or OH's book growing up I'd be dead as doornail in a ditch somewhere.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:36 AM   #19107 (permalink)
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You're going based on who is making the actual minimum wage... Which is ridiculously low. Most poor people make above minimum wage. It's still not enough.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:40 AM   #19108 (permalink)
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You're going based on who is making the actual minimum wage... Which is ridiculously low. Most poor people make above minimum wage. It's still not enough.
It's significant enough that I'd be willing to vote Yang or Warren or even Sanders into office if they want to push policies that can find a way to deal with inflation as well as stagnated wages in places where the cost of living has skyrocketed.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:45 AM   #19109 (permalink)
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As far as personal experience goes....I was in poverty for the first 20 years or so of my life and I spent eight of those lying about my age to local grocers, restaurants, etc. and working my ass off. Did a year in a warehouse, another in a slaughterhouse. I know what it's like to have nothing and it sucks and drains the life out of you.
So it doesn't take long to become out of touch, good to know.

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Having a "woe is me" attitude in the face of the majority never did me a lick of good. If I had taken a leaf out of Bats or OH's book growing up I'd be dead as doornail in a ditch somewhere.
I thought that you didn't want to turn this into an emotional argument?
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Old 09-21-2019, 12:08 PM   #19110 (permalink)
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I thought that you didn't want to turn this into an emotional argument?
I didn't. Yesterday was littered with comments directed toward me like "I'm out of touch" as well as a bunch of snide personal attacks. What am I supposed to say to that other than elaborating on my own personal viewpoints? I can only speak for my own personal experiences growing up in poverty and having to support other people besides myself. If you disagree with them, you should explain why in greater detail instead of belittling me because I don't hate everything about capitalism.
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