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Old 11-05-2019, 11:27 AM   #19411 (permalink)
jwb
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Originally Posted by Frownland View Post
Lucem and elphenor: morality shouldn't be solely dictated by societal norms

Jwb: if morality exists outside of society then show us the one true moral code that cures all ills across the globe or you're wrong
...I didn't say there was.
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:29 AM   #19412 (permalink)
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It's almost like my post was an intentionally facetious misreading of the discussion.
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:35 AM   #19413 (permalink)
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I agree and that's basically my point. There is something to morality more than just causing the least amount of suffering.
That choice would be harmful though. Maybe suffering is as complicated as morality. Maybe the complications of human suffering is why morality is complicated.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Old 11-05-2019, 11:38 AM   #19414 (permalink)
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Why is it harmful if it leads to less suffering?
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:41 AM   #19415 (permalink)
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Why is it harmful if it leads to less suffering?
By literally causing harm.
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:45 AM   #19416 (permalink)
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You understand that when utilitarians talk about the least amount of harm they are basically referring to suffering vs happiness?
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:49 AM   #19417 (permalink)
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Why is it harmful if it leads to less suffering?
Because human suffering isn't as simple as you're making it out to be?

And mostly because it's his choice if he wants to end his own suffering.

To him dying might out weigh the suffering of life.

Also, it's just a very lazy way to end somebody's suffering that doesn't actually stop the event that causes the suffering.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

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Old 11-05-2019, 11:50 AM   #19418 (permalink)
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You understand that when utilitarians talk about the least amount of harm they are basically referring to suffering vs happiness?
You never considered that he may be happier enduring his suffering than he is with giving up.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:52 AM   #19419 (permalink)
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You understand that when utilitarians talk about the least amount of harm they are basically referring to suffering vs happiness?
Or maybe you're trying to straw man me with that because it makes it easier for you to argue against that frame even though you basically lack the understanding of how nuanced and complicated human suffering is.
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Lucem, you're right, it's silly to talk about what I would or wouldn't do IRL. Glad you brought it up. Maybe you should write an instrumental about it. I recommend a piano paired with a clarinet. With ambient sounds of you hanging from your shower curtain you ****ing failure.

Art Is Dead. Buy My ****.
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Old 11-05-2019, 11:53 AM   #19420 (permalink)
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Yes it's his choice. I agree. That's why I don't think it's simply down to what "harms or helps."

That's just an ad hoc rationalization for morality, not the driving force. Morality is largely instinctual. You just feel it's wrong to kill an innocent man against his will regardless of any calculation regarding suffering or harm.
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